PPI against Car Giant

[stewie082]

Re: PPI against Car Giant

Hi All,

I am milling through the terms and conditions of the policy I hold with St Andrews Insurance via Capital bank.

I was informed the policy start date was only 10th Feb 2006 rather than the purchase date of 06 Jan 2006. This leaves a gap of 30 odd days without cover.

Is this standard to not to activate the insurance until the cooling off period has passed?

Stewie

[stewie082]

Re: PPI against Car Giant

Hi all, Hope everyone is fit and well.

I have written a reply to Car Giant. Can someone have a peek and give me a bit of feedback before I send it through?


Thank you for your letter dated 01 September 2008.
Thank you for taking the time to investigate my claim and the prompt reply to my concerns.

In your final response you have made several claims that I find are inconsistent and you have not completely investigated my claim, in addition after more investigation on my part I have discovered several items on your reply disturbing. I have taken the time to contact Capital Bank and St Andrews insurance to find out more details regards the Insurance you miss-sold me. Details are listed below under “My Claim” I would like to bring to your attention the following that concerns me.

1. I arrived at Car Giant offices on January 6th at 3pm, left a deposit and signed documents and concluded the basics of the deal by 3.36pm. Is this enough time to explain the process of the finance, GAP insurance, PPI insurance, breakdown cover, credit checks, leaving a deposit and finally the details of the vehicle and collection process and the handover from one sales person to another? Mr Paul Ali was the original sales person then switched to Mr Ajit Rehal. These times are gathered from your own records

2. Your make mention in Mid January Capital bank sent me all the relevant information, when in fact I requested the information on 10th January and the documents were faxed to me. I have do have these documents.

My claim
Please note my original complaint was a standard template letter from a consumer website, I have since revised my complaint after seeking legal council. I would like to question certain claims you have made and establish my case. In addition I will be forwarding a copy of this complaint to Capital Bank, St Andrews Insurance Plc and if no resolve has been reached within 14days, I will proceed to the financial ombudsman for consideration and mediation.

The finance agreement does terminate in March 2009 as this was taken on 36month finance agreement.

The regular premium type policy will not accrue interest and is a fixed monthly premium, however I include an 8% statutory interest on my claim as would be awarded to me in county courts. These are funds that I would have earned interest on and see no reason why Car Giant or Capital Bank should benefit from the premium.

Thank you for the copies of the Finance agreement etc. I do have the originals and Capital Bank was kind enough to for fill my SAR request. The signature present is mine.

Please bear in mind my previous statement that the original complaint was a template and I would like to defend my case as I am fully entitled to.

I have no doubt my claim would be viewed with interest as I am sure you are aware the motor industry has been fined in excess of £175 000 recently of miss selling PPI recently.













i. My Complaint - "Your salesperson implied that taking out the policy would assist my credit application."

Your reply - Unfortunately there is no record of the full discussion you had with car giant employees from January 2006 so I can not give a definitive answer to this. I can state that this is most certainly not part of any car giant or Capital Bank policy. In the event it was said. Or implied, I think there was sufficient information provided, that made no mention of this. To allow cancellation either within the initial 28 day cooling off' period, or after a longer period with only premiums paid being potentially forfeited. This cooling off period is for exactly this reason and there is an argument that it is a customer responsibility to read the policy documentation if the documentation had been read this complaint would not have needed to be made.

My argument – Your sales person made no mention of the documents and the importance and that I should take time to read these documents in my own time. If it was important surely he should have taken me through the terms of the policy and the costs involved? I was not made aware of any rights to cancel the policy as I was under the impression I purchased as GAP insurance policy knowingly and breakdown cover. I was under the impression this was a bundle deal.

ii. My complaint ·Your salesperson implied that taking out the policy was essential for me to get the associated credit even though I informed them that I already had alternative insurance cover.

Your Reply - It la noted that question 3 on the Credit Protection Insurance section of the SODAN refers to this specific point "No· has been recorded as the answer. It is also noted that no evidence has been supplied to confirm the existence of such a policy despite our request for further documentation to be provided as soon as possible so it could be taken into account.
This request was made in our acknowledgement letter of 6 August 2008. Even at this stage I would be
Pleased to reconsider our decision should evidence be supplied to confirm the allegation.


My Argument – Again I was not aware of the cost of this PPI policy, I was under the impression this was for the GAP insurance I had purchased. I have requested the policy documents from Legal and general to show evidence of an insurance I did have at the time. I still insist I was under the impression GAP insurance was the cover I was buying into. Swift sales techniques were used and are unfair to a first time buyer like myself.


iii. My complaint "Your salesperson did not give me full information on what the policy would and would not cover."

Your Reply - I agree with this point and would advise that in keeping with FSA rules and guidelines our Business Manager is taught to provide sufficient information for en informed decision to be made. As previously mentioned the 28 day cooling off period. After receipt of the full terms and conditions in the Policy Document, is deemed to allow sufficient time for the customer to review and confirm their decision that the product is as required.

My Argument - It is critical that all terms of the policy are covered and what will be covered and what would not be covered. I will come back to this point in the additional points I need to add later in my case as to the relevance. Your sales person did not cover the full aspects of the cover.


iv. My complaint "I am concerned the sales assistant that sold me the policy has no financial background and the policy was not sold in my best interests”

Your reply - Your reference to “the sales assistant" is miss-leading Car giant "sales assistants are not involved in any way with the provision of finance or PPI. Our procedures and systems only allow for
Fully trained Business Managers to help assist with the provision of finance and PPI. In this case the Business
Manager had a full training record, demonstrated competency and met our stringent standards. The
Implication that a "sales assistant would be put into a position to advise and recommend PPI is denied. There
does not appear to be any evidence to support this allegation.

My Argument – Two sales people were involved in selling me of the vehicle and all the subsequent cover that was applied to the finance. Mr Paul Ali who I recall was a senior sales advisor dealing with business customers not the general public. Have way through the paper work I was passed onto another sales person Ajit Rehal. Is it common practise to have two separate sales people involved? I believe the handover process was NOT seamless and critical points regarding the sale of the policy were not addressed. I am not questioning the skills of your sales team; I do how ever question the process of selling and the importance of laying out the guidelines to the customer effectively and the implications of taking PPI and the rules governing the sale of this insurance. Even looking at your paperwork (Needs and demands) where I have signed, GAP insurance, PPI and Breakdown insurance are all displayed on the same page; by the looks of things I accepted all three. Again bringing me to my point of the sales technique. The product acceptance is sheet has GAP insurance and PPI right next to each other. Totally misleading to the first time customer.
According to the Demands and Needs statement – the Life, accident, sickness, involuntary redundancy was handed to Ajit Rehal at 15:29pm and signed by me at 15:36. A total of 7 minutes.
There is ample evidence to support my allegation.
You enforce the wording of Business manager over Sales assistant; this is no concern of mine as who ever made the sale was in your employ. The wording is trivial.

v. My complaint "Having recently asked about my loan I now realise that I have been paying for insurance that I did not know I had taken out so could not have been explained to me. I was not made aware I even purchased PPI cover”.

Your reply – This allegation is quite hard to comprehend. In points i and ii the allegations are to the effect that you were told you had to have the PPI to assist. And in fact was essential, to the finance application being accepted.
Here you allege you were not aware of the fact you had purchased a PPI policy. I cannot see how both these complaints are justified. This does demonstrate a lack of consistency at best, and this being an unsubstantiated and speculative complaint on the other hand.

My Argument – I was sold an insurance policy I did not know I had. This does not lead to any lack of consistency. Again I raise the point of every other insurance available was sold to me within several minutes. I believe I have explained this point in my previous comments and there is no need to rehash this item. Your sales team obviously on high commissions structure to ensure the sales of these policies and combine them with better options like GAP insurance or breakdown coverage.

vi. My complaint "I have yet to receive a full financial statement of the current loan I have, only on calling your service desk (Capital Bank -OS), was I informed of the insurance and the cost I have been paying”.
Your reply " As with point v, it is hard la comprehend how in previous allegations the complaint involves being miss-sold, yet in this allegation you claim it was not miss-sold but not even mentioned. I would also like to note that car giant are, in this instance, Insurance Intermediaries and as such nor In a position to provide a financial statement of your loan. I would advise contacting Capital Bank to this effect


My Argument – Capital bank only supply a total figure, no insurance premiums are displayed on any statements. The settlement does not include any rebate of insurance or any evidence of a breakdown of costs. On asking for a SAR did I find out the true cost of this policy over time. Capital bank re-directed my original complaint to your selves as the seller of the policy.

vii. My complaint “I am deeply concerned that this was never communicated to me. The sale of the vehicle was concluded in less than 20 minutes including credit search and application process."

Your reply - I do find this allegation rather strange.
The car sales environment at car giant is open, and customers take as long as they wish to purchase or not as the case may be we simply issue car keys to customers who inspect vehicles at their leisure. Our computerised records indicate that the first meeting with our employees alone lasted 40 minutes. This excludes the time you spent looking at the car and the further meetings with our Business Manager and Collections staff. As you may be aware we only provide information to the finance company. May I suggest that if you have a concern with the performance of Capital Bank regarding the process of your application, it be addressed to them.


My Argument – According to your time the sales process was actually just over 30 minutes, this did include all the relevant credit checks, GAP insurance, PPI and breakdown cover. In addition this time would have included a hand over from one sales person to another and the normal questions I would have had regarding the vehicle. I have no concerns with Capital bank. I was met by your sales advisor on entering your establishment and found the service to be very friendly and trusting. The issuing me with the keys and final payment was very prompt. It was late on a Friday night. I did however not feel rushed. Your staff was very friendly and helpful; this does not have any bearing on my claim.


viii. My complaint – “Your service desk did not inform me of my rights to cancel the insurance when the agreement was signed In addition made me aware and hinted that defending the charges and fee's would be complicated and a lengthy process. But were happy to cancel the insurance if I sent a letter, this would take an additional 2-3 weeks to process, in turn adding another month's premium for something I did not agree to or want. I am prepared to defend my claim.”

Your reply - The allegations made in this point again appear to be contradictory and contain
conflicting information. If I consider the first sentence, I have to ask myself that If you knew of the insurance
when the agreement was signed, how can points i. and ii., be valid complaints. Even with the most vivid of
imagination the regular premium PPI policy attached to you loan cannot be deemed complicated. Quite simply,
there are no charges or fees, The PPI involves a monthly payment. It is possible you are being confused with
the more complex single premium PPI policies. The third sentence further adds to the inconsistency of the
Complaint. You state that when the agreement was signed you were advised that to cancel the PPI would take
2-3 weeks. This makes me wonder why, you did not do so at this stage, rather than wait a further 2.5 years.
As a further point the first finance payment is not taken until at least 4 weeks have elapsed from the date you
Signed the agreement It is also strange to comprehend why, having advised the Business Manager, when
Signing the agreement that you wished to cancel the PPI he would not just remove it there and then.

My Argument - You refer back to inconsistency in my claim. I am totally consistent in my claim and have always maintained I was not aware of the premium involved and the true cost of this insurance coupled with Breakdown cover and Gap insurance.
The cancellation process was NOT at the time of purchase January 2006 but rather August 2008 when I found out I was paying an additional £35 a month for something I wasn’t aware of or wanted. This was 2.5yrs down the line as I wasn’t aware of it before due to the statement Capital Bank sent on request. Again NO mention of insurance is broken down in the statement. Only after asking your after sales member by phone in August 2008 was I informed I did indeed have PPI on this vehicle and that cancelling would be a process and would take some time and cannot be done through Car Giant. Hence why my complaint was originally directed to Capital bank. And no refund would be given; hence leading to the discussion claiming would be a lengthy and complicated process. You state the first premium was deducted four weeks after the finance was agreed, why is this? What did I pay £200 deposit for and then an additional £939? In the final invoice I was billed £6000 for finance. No mention of additional insurance.

Your comment “Even with the most vivid of imagination the regular premium of PPI policy attached to your loan cannot be deemed complicated”
I find this to be offensive and an insult to my intelligence and borderline degrading.

Additional complaint

No mention of comparative prices was made available to me on any insurance.

I have since spoken to St Andrews insurance and Capital Bank/RBS regarding the PPI. There was no coverage from the date of signing the agreement 06 January 2006 up to 10th Feb 2006 leaving 34 days with no cover from this insurance what so ever. Making it totally pointless. After further investigation the set terms on this policy would have all been pushed out for the additional time frame, as discussed in section C of the Terms and conditions of the policy would have now be set at 64 days instead of the listed 30. In the event of me becoming unemployed even after the 30day “trial” I would not be eligible for a claim.

There was no cover from this policy at all for the first 34 days of me signing my contract with Car Giant. The policy was only effective from 10th Feb 2006.

Thank you for attaching the information regarding the Financial Ombudsman and the financial services authority. I would like to give you the opportunity to respond to my claim within 14 days of receipt of this letter before I take further action.

Thanks
Stewie

[Amy]

Re: PPI against Car Giant

This letter needs to be succinct and to the point. I'll see if I can rework it for you.

[stewie082]

Re: PPI against Car Giant

Hi Amy, thanks for your help on this. I really perhaps I get a bit to personal on this. Maybe I should have added more of the meaty stuff.

Like according to FSA regulations you did not:

• Not explaining the PPI product clearly, including significant exclusions and limitations of the policy.
• Fail to ensure I was eligible to claim against the product.
• In advised sales, not finding out whether the PPI policy was suitable for me.
• In advised sales, poorly put together statements of demands and needs that did not explain the firm's recommendation or tailor the information to the individual customer.
• Inadequate systems and controls in place around the sales process. These could result in sales staff not following the firm's own processes, and ultimately for inappropriate sales practices

The chap who replied to your complaint acknowledges that the salesperson didn't comply with FSA guidelines in explaining other cover products available and the comparative prices of these, against the PPI product you were being offered. This is a clear breach of FSA regulations and the Banking Code.

I was obliged to receive information that helps me make an informed decision as to whether the PPI product meets my needs and personal circumstances. I doubt whether I would have taken the product had I known the true cost.

How does this sound?

[Amy]

Re: PPI against Car Giant

Much better, you need to lose all the "my argument" business. It needs to be clear and concise or they won't read it.

Don't argue with them, tell them the problem and how you expect them to resolve it.

[stewie082]

Re: PPI against Car Giant

Hiya Amy,

The "My argument" stuff is in response to the letter they sent me. I tried to upload it on here but it was to big. So basically my original claim from MSE and then the reply and then my argument..

HEEEELLLPPPP

I want to try and make it formal but with my opinion in there to. The problem is my first complaint was a standard template and i didnt adjust it and I didnt post it either for comments so basically I feel I have to argue point for point.

[Amy]

Re: PPI against Car Giant

Right, let me have a go at it for you.

I'll post up in a bit.

[stewie082]

Re: PPI against Car Giant

Ill give you my last Rolo!

[Amy]

Re: PPI against Car Giant

From reading their responses and your arguments, Cargiant have stated that this is their final response and perhaps you should now carry out your threat and take it to the FOS.

I rather think that if you carry on corresponding with Cargiant you will just be going round in ever decreasing circles.

How do you feel about that?

[stewie082]

Re: PPI against Car Giant

I was thinking the exact same thing when I first got the response from them. I dont know really. I thought I would expand on my original complaint and see if anything comes of it.

I dont mind going either way (that sounds bad!)

Ive never had any dealings with the FOS but if it will bring about a speedy resolve then im game.

Stewie