FROA - RBS info and work on getting FROA recognised somehow

[CYNthesys]

Re: FROA - RBS info confidential and work on getting FROA recognised somehow

Dont know if this link offers any help, it gets back to the bones of appropriation, when the Appropriation Bill was being debated in 1910s
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/c...CV0024P0-02496

[Amethyst]

Re: FROA - RBS info confidential and work on getting FROA recognised somehow

mmmm ok I think a general whats your policy letter first and then an in depth you are wrong this is why letter as a follow up.

[Amethyst]

Re: FROA - RBS info confidential and work on getting FROA recognised somehow

think I'll use the natwest document at top of this thread to quote back at natwest re their policy. will get lloyds letter done first then amend for the others

[Amethyst]

Re: FROA - RBS info confidential and work on getting FROA recognised somehow

from Cobra on PC


there are a few people i know who have used the letter and it was of no effect, which i very frustrating, i have had each of them contact the benefits agency, whom have interveined and got the money from them, and had giros sent as a temp measure until a new account was opened elsewhere.

very frustrating indeed.

Cobra

[tomterm8]

Re: FROA - RBS info confidential and work on getting FROA recognised somehow

OK.

I once went up to a bank, and I paid in money to an account, and it WASN'T MY ACCOUNT. And i said to the teller "this isn't my debt, but I want to pay it off" and the teller was quite happy with that. So my Uncle Frank, he was reading his statement and he was really annoyed, and he wrote to the bank and informed the bank that he didn't accept the payment. Since this was the case, i have a right in equity to recover the money from the bank.

Now, if he had accept the payment, legally speaking, an action in equity would lie between my Uncle Frank and Myself, a right of action that would lead to a right to trace the money.

And i would be able to recover the money from Uncle Frank.

legally, there is a right to decide whether a payment made to a debt can be used to repay the debt, you see. if it can not be used to repay the debt, then the money is recoverable by the person who makes the payment.

This right of action is incorrectly known as the right of first appropriation, and has (in common practice) become a right to require banks to return payment because (in practice) the money is normally recovered by Uncle frank as an agent of the payor. This is normally done in the form of a letter before the payment is made.

Are you following me so far?

the right of first appropriation is DIFFERENT from any right of appropriation, it is from an entirely different legal derivation. the right of appropriation says that if someone pays money to a creditor, then that person has the legal right to determine which debt the money is paid to. this has ancient roots, and is obvious law. although its a common law right that can be overturned by contract for non-consumer credit agreements, it is a statutory right with respect to consumer credit agreements ( s81 cca 74 IIRC).


Beyond the common law implications, there is a basic legal requirement on the banks to act fairly, and if they refuse to pay benefit money you are entitled to as a matter of public policy, the Unfair Relationship principals of the CCA 2006 may be engaged.

Further, no contract term may be enforced under the UTTCR if it is unfair, and a term that allows the bank to appropriate money to repay debt which was paid with the intention of fulfilling the customers basic survival needs.

[tomterm8]

Re: FROA - RBS info confidential and work on getting FROA recognised somehow

By the way, any letters you work on should be an open letter CC'd to the Rt Hon John McFall MP (Chairman) of the Treasury Committee, which has ongoing reports into social exclusion.

[tomterm8]

Re: FROA - RBS info confidential and work on getting FROA recognised somehow

First thoughts re letter - nicked off Jules' reg trust letter lol....feel free to ignore i pressed post by accident am still working on it lol - rather obviously


J. Eric Daniels
Group Chief Executive and Director
Lloyds TSB Bank PLC
Head Office
25 Gresham Street
London
EC2V 7HN
Tel: 020 7626 1500

Dear Mr Daniels,

OPEN LETTER on your banks policy with regard to social exclusion
CC Rt Hon John McFall MP

I am writing to you, as part of the Administration Team at the rapidly growing Legal Beagles Consumer Group, to request information about your banks current policy with regards to an individuals first right of appropriation.

I am aware of Lloyds TSB's considerable efforts to help consumers who have, through no fault of their own, suffered financial hardship. However, despite your undoubted efforts in the matter, I would like to raise some issues that seem to be tarnishing your otherwise impecable reputation.

I am sure you are aware that an individual has the ability, under common law, to assert their right of first appropriation where money intended to cover essential living expenses are being taken by the bank in what may (by some) be considered unfair charges or in fulfillment of other debts. This "Right of first Appropriation" allows a customer to assign any funds entering their account to finance basic survival needs. This is something all the banks should be aware of, but sometimes junior members of staff do not understand this process since it is not very often used. These occasions cause significant financial hardship.


Our members have experienced a number of instances of a lack of understanding of this right by some of your branch staff.

Examples:
Mr A -
''Lloyds staff told me if I enforced my first right of appropriation the bank would shortly after issue me with a 30 days notice of account closure.''

Mrs F -
''I was told as you 've come in to the bank with this letter of appropriation we can do this only once and we need you to come in to the bank on Monday, to draw the money out and so that we can speak to you about your account, we need to cancel all your direct debits and then close your account. ''

Mr C -
'' LLOYDS TSB are insisting that I cannot use my first right of appropriation, even though I have had to use it to pay my priority bills on three occasions. Lloyds have been taking charges from my account and leaving me with nil funds. I have complained and argued with those fine people in the collections dept and have had success in the past, with refunds been made by the bank. The branch staff and management have been nothing but obstructive and on my production of the letter of appropriation at the branch it leads to confusion embarrasment and total non co-operation from them. Todays visit to serve them with the letter of appropriation was again confrontational by them and upon instructions from the said collections dept I was informed that they will no longer conform to my right of first appropriation. ''


You may also be aware that many councils recommend the use of an individuals first right of appropriation with regards to allowing housing benefit payments to be used to pay rent. It does appear from the councils that they too have experienced problems with some bank staffs knowledge of the law and have assigned benefit payments to cover debts instead of allowing individuals their basic living expenses, indeed Hinckley and Bosworth Borough Council in their advice leaflet on the use of the first right of appropriation clearly state '' Your bank may disregard this request. If this does happen you would then have to complain and involve the banking Ombudsman, which could take some time to resolve. ''.

I am aware that you have made several commitments via the banking code to act reasonably to debtors in poor financial circumstances, and of the ongoing discussions and evidence you have submitted to the Treasury Committee's reports on social exclusion. Therefore, I would ask if you have any policies on tackling poverty, and ensuring that your customers are able to access benefits such as housing benefit and jobseekers allowance where they are necessary to fulfill basic needs.

As I believe this matter to be of great media and public interest while I am aware you are extremly busy I would ask you to acknowledge this correspondence as soon as possible, indicating when you will be able to answer the questions raised in this letter.


Yours Sincerely

Plus any other questions....

[Amethyst]

Re: FROA - RBS info confidential and work on getting FROA recognised somehow

Thats bloody brilliant - I'm speechless for the mo. Thank you so much.

[Paule]

Re: FROA - RBS info confidential and work on getting FROA recognised somehow

Reads good to me,

Just some grammar alterations maybe

As I believe this matter to be of great media and public interest while I am aware you are extremly busy I would ask you to acknowledge this correspondence as soon as possible, indicating when you will be able to answer the questions raised in this letter.

TO

As I believe this matter will be of great media and public interest, I am also aware you are extremly busy and would ask that you acknowledge receipt of this correspondence as soon as possible, indicating when you will be able to respond to the questions raised in this letter.

[ed.]

Re: FROA - RBS info confidential and work on getting FROA recognised somehow

Ame - I've been looking for the following myself but with no luck yet. I believe that two Courts have now ruled directly and sided with 2 banks who claim the SSAA and TCA refer to 'charges' against property only AND NOT generic charges and so therefore cannot be used to either claim pen charges or be used as a reason in hardship.

I don't know if you've stumbled across these or knew?

[Amethyst]

Re: FROA - RBS info confidential and work on getting FROA recognised somehow

Yep and i agree re the SSA and the TCA.

We were always on thin ground with that one.

Thats why I wanted to concentrate of the FROA - not in respect of reclaiming, but in respect of making sure people can survive.

Cheers Ed. what do you think of the letter ?

[ed.]

Re: FROA - RBS info confidential and work on getting FROA recognised somehow

Won't go too far off topic here lol but I don't agree. Nowhere in the Acts does it state it applies to property or mortgage charges only. Also the SSAA in a post above the claim it only applied in Scotland. I think it's just the nearest thing the banks can grab to to remove them.

Where I do agree is I don't think they are strong enough on their own merits to make a stable claim without the pen aspect or UTCCR backup.

But from the hardship angle SSAA more than TCA admittedly, goes towards FROA so I see them as being linked, but I don't even know what level of Court those two judgments came in at. In my case TSB had no argument in Court BUT the DJ decided he wasn't going to preempt what the OFT might look at in the Test Case at that time. Next time I raised it after they clarified what they were doing, the barrister got round it as not a new argument as it was raised before so the DJ glossed over it.

Since then I've read more stories of banks claiming property related or responding by mentioning the Social Security and Benefits Act and not giving any response on the SSAA or TCA directly which muddies things somewhat.

So for hardship angles I think we still need to hit them along with FROA, if it isn't good enough to get a stay lifted and some resolution then at least there's a chance of interim relief (despite the precedent against) in some form.

Re the letter it reads fine and covers the points nicely. It's not too harsh and aggressive, it's got the nice twist of praising him up which may yield more to be honest.

[tomterm8]

Re: FROA - RBS info confidential and work on getting FROA recognised somehow

I'm not aware of those judgements, BUT I am not surprised that you would lose the SSAA or TCA arguments, since even the proponents of it admit it isn't a very logical argument. i would suggest that any term of a contract that requires you to put the benefits into the account, however, WOULD be voided by the SSAA or TCA. However, if money was voluntarily placed in the account, the SSAA or TCA would not prevent the appropritation of funds by the bank.

[Paule]

Re: FROA - RBS info confidential and work on getting FROA recognised somehow

Spell checked the letter, there are a few errors in there

J. Eric Daniels
Group Chief Executive and Director
Lloyds TSB Bank PLC
Head Office
25 Gresham Street
London
EC2V 7HN
Tel: 020 7626 1500

Dear Mr Daniels,

OPEN LETTER on your banks policy with regard to social exclusion
CC Rt Hon John McFall MP

I am writing to you, as part of the Administration Team at the rapidly growing Legal Beagles Consumer Group, to request information about your banks current policy with regards to an individuals first right of appropriation.

I am aware of Lloyds TSB's considerable efforts to help consumers who have, through no fault of their own, suffered financial hardship. However, despite your undoubted efforts in the matter, I would like to raise some issues that seem to be tarnishing your otherwise impeccable reputation.

I am sure you are aware that an individual has the ability, under common law, to assert their right of first appropriation where money intended to cover essential living expenses are being taken by the bank in what may (by some) be considered unfair charges or in fulfilment of other debts. This "Right of first Appropriation" allows a customer to assign any funds entering their account to finance basic survival needs. This is something all the banks should be aware of, but sometimes junior members of staff do not understand this process since it is not very often used. These occasions cause significant financial hardship.


Our members have experienced a number of instances of a lack of understanding of this right by some of your branch staff.

Examples:
Mr A -
''Lloyds staff told me if I enforced my first right of appropriation the bank would shortly after issue me with a 30 days notice of account closure.''

Mrs F -
''I was told as you've come in to the bank with this letter of appropriation we can do this only once and we need you to come in to the bank on Monday, to draw the money out and so that we can speak to you about your account, we need to cancel all your direct debits and then close your account. ''

Mr C -
'' LLOYDS TSB are insisting that I cannot use my first right of appropriation, even though I have had to use it to pay my priority bills on three occasions. Lloyds have been taking charges from my account and leaving me with nil funds. I have complained and argued with those fine people in the collections dept and have had success in the past, with refunds been made by the bank. The branch staff and management have been nothing but obstructive and on my production of the letter of appropriation at the branch it leads to confusion embarrassment and total non co-operation from them. Today’s visit to serve them with the letter of appropriation was again confrontational by them and upon instructions from the said collections dept I was informed that they will no longer conform to my right of first appropriation. ''


You may also be aware that much council recommend the use of an individuals first right of appropriation with regards to allowing housing benefit payments to be used to pay rent. It does appear from the councils that they too have experienced problems with some bank staffs knowledge of the law and have assigned benefit payments to cover debts instead of allowing individuals their basic living expenses, indeed Hinckley and Bosworth Borough Council in their advice leaflet on the use of the first right of appropriation clearly state '' Your bank may disregard this request. If this does happen you would then have to complain and involve the banking Ombudsman, which could take some time to resolve. ''.

I am aware that you have made several commitments via the banking code to act reasonably to debtors in poor financial circumstances, and of the ongoing discussions and evidence you have submitted to the Treasury Committee's reports on social exclusion. Therefore, I would ask if you have any policies on tackling poverty, and ensuring that your customers are able to access benefits such as housing benefit and jobseekers allowance where they are necessary to fulfil basic needs.

As I believe this matter to be of great media and public interest while I am aware you are extremely busy I would ask you to acknowledge this correspondence as soon as possible, indicating when you will be able to answer the questions raised in this letter.


Yours Sincerely

Amy must be lacking to not have picked them up...lol

[Amethyst]

Re: FROA - RBS info confidential and work on getting FROA recognised somehow

This has been sent to Cheif Exec of Lloyds as above and

Rt Hon John McFall MP - Chairman Treasury Select Committee
125 College Street
Dumbarton,
West Dunbartonshire
G82 1NH

and

emailed to Ian Pollock BBC (just thought what the hey why not)