FROA - RBS info and work on getting FROA recognised somehow

[Amethyst]

this ties in nicely with somehting I am doing on First Right of appropriation.

Apologies for cak security editing...

[Amethyst]

Re: FROA - RBS info confidential pls

another cak sec edited doc sorry lol


INTERNAL REFINANCE LOANS - RBS

[Amethyst]

Re: FROA - RBS info confidential pls

Law of debtor and creditor

In the law of debtor and creditor, appropriation of payments is the application of a particular payment for the purpose of paying a particular debt. When a creditor has two debts due to him from the same debtor on distinct accounts, the general law as to the appropriation of payments made by the debtor is that the debtor is entitled to apply the payments to such account as he thinks fit; solvitur in modum solventis. In default of appropriation by the debtor the creditor is entitled to determine the application of the sums paid, and may appropriate them even to the discharge of debts barred by the Statute of Limitations. In default of appropriation by either debtor or creditor, the law implies an appropriation of the earlier payments to the earlier debts.















Advice Guide Adviceguide.co.uk - Resources and Information.

Even if your account is overdrawn, you can choose how any further money
you pay into the account is used (for example to pay your mortgage or rent).
This is called first right of appropriation. You'll need to write to them with
new instructions each time you make a deposit

Citizens Advice main site

If you are overdrawn and worried that the money will not be there to pay your rent, you can ask your bank to only use that money for your rent. You must do this before first LHA payment goes in to your bank account. This is called the ‘first right of appropriation’ - Citizens Advice Bureau Advice Guide

Banking code review document from money advice trust - problems identified
NATIONAL DEBTLINE CASE STUDIES

Clients with large mortgage and secured loan. Overdraft with bank on current
account. Exercised first right of appropriation but told by the bank that they would not
accept her letter. Wages paid into the account used to clear overdraft. Mortgage
payments refused

[Amethyst]

Re: FROA - RBS info confidential pls

CORBY COUNCIL

.
This "Right of Appropriation" allows a customer to assign any funds entering their account
to specific events and needs, not just benefits.
This is something all the banks should be aware of, but are loathe to publicise. Some
banks however do not understand this process since it is not very often used















Nice leaflet from Hinkey Bosworth council


Is your bank account
always in the minus?
If so read on to see how your rent payments can be
protected with the First Right of Appropriation
Page 2
What is the First Right of Appropriation?
If you are receiving payment of Housing Benefits direct into your bank
account and your account is overdrawn, you are able to protect any of these
Benefit payments from being used by the bank to pay authorised or
unauthorised overdrafts. You can instruct the bank that the funds are used
only to pay the rent to your landlord. This protection is known as a first right
of appropriation of funds order.
How do I request this?
You will need to give written instruction to your bank at least 7 days before
your Housing Benefit payment is due making it clear that any regular
payments or future deposits from Hinckley and Bosworth Borough Council
into your account are to be used to pay for the rent. If you do not make it
clear that any future payments are to be used for the rent, you will have
to give the bank new instructions each time you make a deposit into
your account.
For example, you may want to instruct your bank or building society as
follows:-
‘I enclose a cheque for £200 to be paid into my current account number 00665533
(or, 'On or around June 20th my wages will be paid into my current account number
00665533'). I am exercising my first right of appropriation over these funds and wish
you to pay the following items from them:-
£75 Cheque number 501 payable to cash
£73 Standing order payable to my Landlord, Mr Smith on the 25th of the month
£52 Direct Debit payable to npower on the 30th of the month.’
Please keep a copy of the written instruction you have given to your bank or
building society in case there is any dispute later. You may also want to ask
your bank or building society for a written acknowledgment of your
instructions.
Page 3
However, please remember that charges will still be accruing on the overdraft.
A bank or building society is unlikely to allow you to use the first right of
appropriation for long, and may close your account.
If there are any items which you no longer wish to pay from the account, or
which you do not have sufficient funds to cover, you should give your bank
separate cancellation instructions. This is because the first right of
appropriation does not stop the bank paying items in addition to those you
have specified. If you do not issue cancellation instructions, you bank may
return the items as unpaid, which may also incur charges. However, payments
from your account to re-pay a loan with the same bank cannot be cancelled.
You can also use the first right of appropriation to assign any funds entering
your account to other payments, not just your Housing Benefit deposits/rent
payments.
This is something all the banks should be aware of, but some banks do not
understand this process since it is not used very often.
You can get further information about the "first right of appropriation" on the
following website:
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/c_bank..._societies.pdf
Please note!
•
Your bank may disregard the request for first right of appropriation if they
do not receive the request at least 7 days before the Housing Benefit is due
to be paid into your account. It is best to check this out with your bank.
•
Your bank may disregard this request. If this does happen you would then
have to complain and involve the banking Ombudsman, which could take
some time to resolve.
Page 4
Appropriation of Other Benefits
Can a bank take Housing Benefit to pay an overdraft?
No, they cannot take ANY of your benefits to clear an overdraft.
This is money required to live on. Generally, banks are not allowed to use Housing
Benefit payments to repay an overdraft as, arguably, the money is not actually
yours; you are just the agent to pass the money along to your landlord. Also banks
are not allowed to use Housing Benefit or any other benefits to repay an overdraft
as the law provides that a person needs a minimum amount of money to meet
their basic needs and that is what income related benefits are provided for.
If this has happened to you, you would be advised to seek legal advice or contact
a Welfare Agency for further help and claim back any charges.
Information on the following website can help you claim back any resulting bank
charges:
Bank charges - Credit card charges - Penalty charges - Reclaim Unfair Charges - This is a free site that also contains
downloadable letters that you can adapt when instructing your bank.
If you think that your account is likely to be overdrawn on a regular basis and you
want to use the first right of appropriation on your bank account, please can you
complete the form below and take it to your bank at least 7 days before your
Housing Benefit payment is due to be made into your account.
First Right Of Appropriation
I
(full name)
Of
(address)
request that any further Housing Benefit payments received from Hinckley and
Bosworth Borough Council into my bank account number
(state your full account number)
from
(date)
can only be used for my rent payments and are not to be used for any other reason.
Signature
Date

[Amethyst]

Llloyds staff

if I enforced my first right of appropriation the bank would shortly after issue me with a 30 days notice of account closure !!!!

another disregard from lloyds

As you 've come in to the bank with this letter of apropriation we can do this only once and we need you to come in to the bank on Monday, to draw the money out and so that we can speak to you about your account, we need to cancel all your direct debits and then close your account.

also lloyds

Can anyone help me with LLOYDS TSB insisting that I cannot use my first right of APPROPRIATION, even though I have had to use it to pay my PRIORITY bills on three occasions. LLOYDS have been taking charges from my account and leaving me with nil funds. I have complained and argued with those fine people in the collections dept and have had success in the past, with refunds been made by the bank. The branch staff and management have been nothing but OBSTRUCTIVE and on my production of the letter of APPROPRIATION at the branch it leads to confusion embarrasment and total non co-operation from them. Todays visit to serve them with the letter of APPROPRIATION was again confrontational by them and upon instructions from the said collections dept I was informed that they will no longer conform to my right of first APPROPRIATION,I am in the process of opening an account with another bank. PLEASE any further advise would be gratefully received as I wont have the alternative account opened in time for the next battle to get at MY funds.I am of course awaiting the outcome of the big wigs decision in the new year re claiming my charges as I have been "STAYED" on two claims but "SUCCESSFUL" with my business claim, hence the aggro from the bank.

Requested info on CAG First Right of Appropriation - have you used it ? Experiences wanted - The Consumer Forums
and on PC First Right of Appropriation - any experiences ? - Penalty Charges Forum

So we'll see a) if they allowed to stay and b) if theres any useful info i can utilise to get this going

I did post n CAG a long while back a detailed investigation into the legalities behind FROA but can't find it.

[Amethyst]

Re: FROA - RBS info confidential pls

cheers Tanz for posting on Pc one - ummm FOI apply to commercial business policy ?

[Amethyst]

Re: FROA - RBS info confidential and work on getting FROA recognised somehow

Oh ffs

Hi Amethyst69,

The post that you created in the following thread has been un-approved

-----
Post ID: Hi everyone.

I am looking into the general use and alledged...
Thread: First Right of Appropriation - have you used it ? Experiences wanted
-----

This is an automated message, please do not reply.

Regards,
The Forum Management

Hey ho. think i know most peeps who have used it anyway so will just pm them.

[Amethyst]

Re: FROA - RBS info confidential and work on getting FROA recognised somehow

First thoughts re letter - nicked off Jules' reg trust letter lol....feel free to ignore i pressed post by accident am still working on it lol - rather obviously


J. Eric Daniels
Group Chief Executive and Director
Lloyds TSB Bank PLC
Head Office
25 Gresham Street
London
EC2V 7HN
Tel: 020 7626 1500

Dear Mr Daniels,

I am writing to you, as part of the Administration Team at the rapidly growing Legal Beagles Consumer Group, to request information about your banks current policy with regards to an individuals first right of appropriation.

You may be aware that an individual has the ability, under common law, to assert their right of appropriation where money intended to cover essential living expenses are being taken by the bank in what may now be considered unfair charges. This "Right of Appropriation" allows a customer to assign any funds entering their account to specific events and needs, not just benefits. This is something all the banks should be aware of, but are loathe to publicise. Some banks however do not understand this process since it is not very often used

We have experienced a number of instances of a lack of consideration of this right by your branches.

Examples:
Mr A -
''Lloyds staff told me if I enforced my first right of appropriation the bank would shortly after issue me with a 30 days notice of account closure.''

Mrs F -
''I was told as you 've come in to the bank with this letter of appropriation we can do this only once and we need you to come in to the bank on Monday, to draw the money out and so that we can speak to you about your account, we need to cancel all your direct debits and then close your account. ''

Mr C -
'' LLOYDS TSB are insisting that I cannot use my first right of appropriation, even though I have had to use it to pay my priority bills on three occasions. Lloyds have been taking charges from my account and leaving me with nil funds. I have complained and argued with those fine people in the collections dept and have had success in the past, with refunds been made by the bank. The branch staff and management have been nothing but obstructive and on my production of the letter of appropriation at the branch it leads to confusion embarrasment and total non co-operation from them. Todays visit to serve them with the letter of appropriation was again confrontational by them and upon instructions from the said collections dept I was informed that they will no longer conform to my right of first appropriation. ''


You may also be aware that many councils recommend the use of an individuals first right of appropriation with regards to allowing housing benefit payments to be used to pay rent. It does appear from the councils that they too have no confidence in your banks willingness to abide by the law and allow individuals their basic living expenses, indeed Hinckley and Bosworth Borough Council in their advice leaflet on the use of the first right of appropriation clearly state '' Your bank may disregard this request. If this does happen you would then have to complain and involve the banking Ombudsman, which could take some time to resolve. ''.

What I require. ???????????????????????????/// banks policy and understanding of the FROA ***************************

As I believe this matter to be of great media and public interest, especially in the current climate, I would ask you to at least acknowledge this correspondence by return or at the latest within the next ten days, indicating your intentions to my request.


Yours Sincerely

[Amethyst]

Re: FROA - RBS info confidential and work on getting FROA recognised somehow

hmmm shall I write to ombudsman for their views too ? might be a good idea,.

[Amethyst]

Re: FROA - RBS info confidential and work on getting FROA recognised somehow

talking to myself again aren;t I

[Amethyst]

Re: FROA - RBS info confidential and work on getting FROA recognised somehow

This "Right of Appropriation" allows a customer to assign any funds entering their account
to specific events and needs, not just benefits.
This is something all the banks should be aware of, but are loathe to publicise. Some
banks however do not understand this process since it is not very often used

CORBY .gov

[Paule]

Re: FROA - RBS info confidential and work on getting FROA recognised somehow

From the BBA

Have to check for the current version

Recommendation 11: a better deal for those in financial difficulties

The guidance notes to the Banking Code should be revised to spell out key practices which are consistent with the Code principles on the treatment of people in financial difficulties. The revised Guidance should be re-issued to subscribers by November 2001.

We support the thrust of this recommendation, although we think the reference to 'the customer's right of appropriation' may be factually incorrect. Amendments to the Banking Code Guidance for Subscribers are the responsibility of the Associations and we will be working closely with the BCSB in the development of its proposals for changes to the Guidance. At this stage an implementation date of November 2001 represents a challenging deadline, but we would aim to implement any necessary changes as soon as practicable.

BBA Association - Cracking the codes for banking customers

[Amethyst]

Re: FROA - RBS info confidential and work on getting FROA recognised somehow

post from Lizzy on Pen Charges

Good morning Amethyst

My daughter has used the "first right of appropriation letter" several times, the first time she used it she presented it to the manager at her local branch of Barclays, he simply chuckled and said "he'd never heard of it", needless to say the letter was totally ineffective. She then decided to send copies to head office to which they never responded to.

She also stated the Social Security Administration Act 1992 on her application for stay removal- at the actual hearing Barclays counsel said "she had totally mis understood the act as it was only applicable in Scotland"!!

Not to suggest everyone using the first right of appropriation letter/social security Administration act 1992 would get the same response, this was my daughters own experience.

[Amethyst]

Re: FROA - RBS info confidential and work on getting FROA recognised somehow

Lords Hansard text for 8 Nov 2005 (51108-41)

more for c/card offsetting tho




from exam paper cyn posted a while back

Appropriation is the right to apply a credit to a particular debt. The first right of appropriation belongs to the customer, if they do not appropriate the bank then assumes the right, if neither appropriate then Clayton’s Case (Devaynes v Noble 1816) applies. Appropriation can be express, such as writing the account number on a slip or implied, depositing exactly the same amount as a written cheque on an overdrawn account. Either way the customer is clearly stating which debt he wishes to apply the credit to. Upon insolvency the customer loses the right to appropriate, for example in the allocation of proceeds resulting from the realisation of security; Re William Hall Contractors.

[Paule]

Re: FROA - RBS info confidential and work on getting FROA recognised somehow

Mortgage related but has some links to other cases

In the absence of a pre-existing agreement defining to what part of a debt
payments are to be appropriated, it is open to a debtor when making a
payment to determine how his payment is to be treated (Lowther v Heaver
(1889) 41 Ch D 248; Leeson v Lesson [1936] 2 KB 156).
If the debtor makes no appropriation before or at the time of payment the
creditor has the right to do so (Seymour v Pickett [1905] 1 KB 715). The
debtor's right can be exercised at any time until it is inequitable for him to be
permitted to do so. It should be noted that payments can be appropriated to a
statute-barred claim prior to judgment (Smith v Betty [1903] 2 KB 317). It
seems where there has been no appropriation the law may well apply any
payment made to interest before applying it to the capital to which the interest
relates ( Income Tax Commissionaer v Maharajadhiraja of Darbhanga
(1933) LR 60 IA ).