Credit card saga?

[nemesis45]

Re: Credit card saga?

With respect can I ask when you defaulted in relation to when you sent the CCA requests? I'm struggling to understand how this information is lost between OC and DCA, at what point do the OC destroy the original paperwork?

I guess I hav a fear that they will produce all that they need possibly via reconstitution and I'll get stung?

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One other thing just came to mind, at what point will yours become statute barred?
I'm just trying to understand timescales and the DCAs actions.

In general creditors/banks etc. have to keep data for 6 years after an account has been closed, though I have found on some occasions that creditor have kept data for longer.

nem

[Onestepatatime]

Re: Credit card saga?

Thanks Warwick and nem,

[warwick65]

Re: Credit card saga?

I think in the digital age, info can be kept very much longer. I recently sent a SAR and received info from an account I closed 15+ years ago as well as accounts closed 8 or 9 years ago.

[Onestepatatime]

Re: Credit card saga?

Well to be honest this was my concern, that with digital storage these days, there is no reason why the required documents shouldn't be readily available for DCAs to access- therefore making it very difficult for challenge successfully if the paperwork is compliant with CCA requirements?
This is why I'm a little sceptical of all these victories is it a case of we one the battle but Will we win the war? Scenario.

Therefore unless I know that the paperwork that I receive is complaint or not is it worth the risk to challenge it?

[warwick65]

Re: Credit card saga?

Hi

When you have a claim taken out against you there are very many ways to defeat it

S77-79 is one way when they can not get hold of the agreement or recon an agreement they think you signed. It is for info purposes only although there are requirements that make an agreement UE if not complied with.

However, if you sell a £500 debt for £50 then two years later the new owner comes to you asking for the info, maybe you really can't be too bothered with spending time looking for it - I have read one supposed deed of assignment where it said they would only look if the request came within 12 months of the sale date, well I think that is what it said but that was from a tin pot lender to a tinpot DCA

Next (maybe) you can look at the executed agreement , really relevant if the agreement was from before April 2007. If this is the case it must be laid out in the prescribed manner and contain the prescribed terms. Now in the old days some lenders were very lax and did not get this right- god knows how , they have massive compliance departments that should be all over what is needed. I had an HBOS loan that because it was not set out correctly was UE - not heard from them since 2012.

Now those two are just about the agreement

There are lots of other regulatory situations where breach makes the account UE - maybe no default notice was sent, maybe it did not comply with the regulations - therefore UE

What about assignment- maybe they can not get their evidence in order to show they actually own the debt

http://legalbeagles.info/forums/show...ANA-MAYHEW-WIN

PRA v Brunt is another - I can't find the details of it at the moment [MENTION=551]pt2537[/MENTION]

Now while they maybe only persuasive because they are in the county court rather than the appeal court, PRA v Mayhew was a decision by a recorder who is more senior than just a mere DDJ or DJ.

There are lots more arguments that I believe can be run but to be honest some of them are maybe too complex for the average Jo or Joe .

There was a case on here recently, a large debt ( 8 or 9000) where the arguments were sound but maybe if the claimant had been hauled over the coals in court they may have lost because they might not have been able to fully articulate the reasoning but a very good Witness Statement that spelt out the argument won the day and it did not go to court.

Even a case recently for a 2K 2011 ish debt was defeated in court because of various issues and the claimants put up a barrister - maybe not expecting the defendant to have legal representation. The claimant did and won.

It is true though, IMO, that the law is not designed for justice , if it were it would be simpler to understand . It is designed for authorities to be able to control the population.

We all know of stupid laws- I remember around where I live there was the possibility that if someone under 16 was seen on the streets unaccompanied by an adult after 9pm they could be forcibly taken to a place of 'safety'. It did not specify if they needed a note or what reasons they could have- obviously there are sensible interpretations but who says they needed to be interpreted that way.

hear endeth the lesson

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Therefore unless I know that the paperwork that I receive is complaint or not is it worth the risk to challenge it?

When you say challenge it - the whole point is to try and stay out of court

I can only tell you how my debt journey has and is going

[Onestepatatime]

Re: Credit card saga?

Ok thanks again, I'm getting the picture now. So I need a greater understanding of the consumer law bit but where from?

[warwick65]

Re: Credit card saga?

Ok thanks again, I'm getting the picture now. So I need a greater understanding of the consumer law bit but where from?

If you want my advice- have a read of threads on here but more importantly do not go at it like a bull in a china shop (easy said , I know a couple of people on here will chuckle when they hear me say that )

Just take each step as it comes

Once the debt has been sold from the OC and the new owners start to hassle you either , if no CCA request has ever been sent , send one and if you did end one that was not complied with then maybe ( and i do mean maybe) just write telling the new owner that there is an outstanding CCA request.

I have a whole drawer full of papers from different creditors , one file for each and every letter I have sent or received is in that drawer . personally i also have them scanned and saved in google - belt n braces

[Onestepatatime]

Re: Credit card saga?

Update:

have received a second batch of the same statements? From DF.

have sent out CCA request inc fee to AGL, with copy to DF.

wrt the statements should they not go up to present day or at least to the point whereby the balance on said statement matches balance on said account? What's to say that the balance hadn't been paid off?

[Debt Camel]

Re: Credit card saga?

This is why I'm a little sceptical of all these victories is it a case of we one the battle but Will we win the war? Scenario.

That is a significant risk. You could spend a lot of your time fighting court battles over the next few years. Think whack-a-mole.

Therefore unless I know that the paperwork that I receive is complaint or not is it worth the risk to challenge it?

Well what else are you going to do?

You have moved into a sort of limbo state at the moment. This is not good. Having debt collectors pop up with court claims in a few years time, some of which you may well loose is not a good plan.

These debts will not become statute barred for many years - there is no point in hoping that most of them will ever get to that point.

Debt collectors are now going to court a lot more often than they used to - there were over 100,000 CCJs in each of the first 3 months of 2017.

It is better to find out the scale of your problem now and face up to it.

How about you list your debts and (separately) your wife's debts. Who the original creditor was, the rough date the account was taken out (not the date it defaulted) and the rough amount currently owed.

That will give some clue as to the scale of your problem and whether a significant number of these could be lacking CCA paperwork.

If there are a lot, then you can set about asking for the paperwork. If it is produced, you go back to making monthly payments if you want to avoid a CCJ. At the end of the process, you will have an idea of how much debt is likely to be enforceable and can take sensible decision on bankruptcy.

It is, of course, a huge pity you didn't both go bankrupt many years ago - that is not a good reason to reject this as an option now.

[Onestepatatime]

Re: Credit card saga?

Thanks debt camel, it was an option I'd have considered however the wife was adamant it wouldnt be good for us to do so, so we didn't.
At the moment I'm sending out cca requests to establish exactly what is and isn't enforceable as many of the original agreements date back to 2003-2005 with only a couple of loans from 2008 on.

[warwick65]

Re: Credit card saga?

Hi
I wouldn't rush to drastic steps just yet. [MENTION=48934]Debt Camel[/MENTION]
The number of ccjs, do we have stats on that and what the increase is?
I also wonder just how much is due to the new pre action protocols due in place soon.
Of course with more and more debts being post 2007 it becomes more difficult to defend as 127(3) is not relevant

Finally, just how many ccjs news to happen if Tomlins are put in place

Just for info I have had two post 2007 debts closed for reasons not given and a lot of pre 2007 debts UE either due to no cca or incorrectly executed agreements. Nearly all from 2005/6

[Debt Camel]

Re: Credit card saga?

Hi
I wouldn't rush to drastic steps just yet. @Debt Camel

looking at the full picture is not rushing to dramatic steps!

The number of ccjs, do we have stats on that and what the increase is?

Sure - here you are https://debtcamel.co.uk/huge-increase-ccjs/

I also wonder just how much is due to the new pre action protocols due in place soon.

Well there could some. but the Debt PAP wasn't finalised until late March and then the short implementation time came as a surprise to some people... so I doubt this would have affected the Jan-Mar CCJ stats much.

Of course with more and more debts being post 2007 it becomes more difficult to defend as 127(3) is not relevant

exactly, which is why I asked for a list of accounts and how old they are.

I have seen far too many people put off taking decisions for far too long. I know the ethos of this forum is to fight every single case - that's good, in fact it's great to have this resource here for people. But that doesn't mean that fighting every single case is always a sensible option for people with a large number of debts.

[warwick65]

Re: Credit card saga?

[MENTION=48934]Debt Camel[/MENTION] the drastic steps wasn't intended for you and yes I agree informed decisions are the way forward.

The stats certainly show an increase in ccjs and smaller ones at that. I think the reasons are probably far more complex than they show. Maybe Inc mobile phone and low balance debt, lack of credible resources to fight - a basic injustice against ordinary people.

Let's face it, the numbers will confess to anything if you torture them enough.

We know official stats are flawed, just look at May and her overstaying students.

[Debt Camel]

Re: Credit card saga?

The overstaying students were bogus, I have no reason think these CCJs are anything other than real.

[warwick65]

Re: Credit card saga?

The overstaying students were bogus, I have no reason think these CCJs are anything other than real.

My point was, both official figures and both possibly with more detail than at first sight.
I think the quote in there says it all, ccjs are because of failure to manage debt, implication being it is the debtors failure. Not always true.