Very catalogue debt

[Kazwitch]

Hi, I offered Very a reduced monthly payment of £100 (they were asking for £367 mth). They wouldn't accept but I paid it anyway. Things got worse financially so I offered £50 and thats what i've been paying. They still will not accept my offer and are adding default charges. I sent them a £1 cheque and asked for a copy of my signed cca. They never cashed the cheque but sent a blank copy of the cca (within 12 days), with no signature, no acc number, no address or even my name. They enclosed a letter saying the account was opened in 2002 and that under the agreement I have with them, I'm basically under obligation to pay the account inc arrears of nearly £600.
Seeing as i've not signed or recieved the fore said signed cca, where do i stand? :witchy:

[labman]

Re: Very

A reconstituted agreement does not have to have a signature. You should receive a copy of the orignal agreement, the current terms as varied or the latest copy of each notice of variation of each term that has been varied “Together with” a statement signed by or on behalf of the Creditor (-ie- at the same time as it).

Very have clearly not complied with this. There is a letter template you can send to tell them they have not complied, which unfortunately I don't have to hand. If you pm me tomorrow, I'll remember to post it up for you. Please put a link to this thread on the pm - thanks! :beagle:

[Kazwitch]

Re: Very

Thank you Labman
I have just recieved a very nasty letter from Very about adding default charges (can I claim these back?)
They also sent
'Credit Agreement Regulated By Consumer Credit Act 1974'
and a letter:

'We refer to your recent reqyest for a copy of your credit agreement.
Please Find enclosed a copy of your current credit agreement , which includes all applicable contractual
variations and amendments that have taken place since your account was opened.
According to our records, your account was opened on 2nd April 2002.

You agreed to make payments every 28 days in accordance with the terms of your agreement'.

I am still sending them £50 per month as that is all I can afford. They say this is below the required amount as the debt is large and are adding more default charges, but I will continue sending £50 amonth no matter what they say.

The CCA they've sent has their signature at the bottom, but my address, name etc is nowhere on the CCA.
They are now demanding £947.36 with further monthly payments of £357.

I'm in arrears with my rent, electric and gas. I've just had a meter installed to pay that debt off.
My council tax is £130 a month (not in arrears with council tax).
What should I send to Very now?

[labman]

Re: Very

Hi,

Here's the letter I promised last ight - thanks for the reminder!

Do you mind me asking if you have other debts with which you are struggling as well, as if you have, it would be a good time to get them all sorted out with affordable payments for you. If you haven't, then still post up in reply please, as I think there's another step you need to be taking alongside this letter so that the stress of trying to find money you simply haven't got each month is removed from you.

Here's the letter:



Dear Sir,

Your Ref: abcd1234

On [dd/mm/yyyy] I wrote requesting a true copy of the executed credit agreement for this account. In response to this request I was supplied a document (copy attached) that did not comply with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (CCA1974), because it does not contain all the necessary prescribed terms. The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contains the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in s.61(1) of the CCA(1974) and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document. In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

The documents I received appear to be missing the prescribed terms required by section 60(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. The recent McGuffick and Carey cases confirmed that a lender should submit upon request a valid true copy of the original CCA and also went on to suggest that both the creditor and debtors name and address are clearly displayed - the Judge dealt with this point at paragraph 60 of his judgement when he said this:

"As a matter of common sense It is difficult to see how a copy of a document can omit the names of the parties. It might he thought that the address of the debtor, however, was immaterial, at least to the debtor, who can be assumed to know what it was at the time, if different from his present address. However, as noted above any application of the concept of materiality must not override the requirements of section 78 and the Copies Regulations properly understood. In my view it is clear that the name and address must be provided"

Whilst I appreciate and understand the provision of the recent Carey v HSBC case that stipulates a reconstituted agreement can be provided, I'd like to also point out that I am disputing the actual existence of such an original, which means the Carey case is irrelevant as without one the account would still be deemed unenforceable. Carey only went to prove that if you could not provide an original, for whatever reason, but had proof on your systems/records that certain conditions were in place at that time then a recon could be submitted only in-so-far as to satisfy your s.78 request. If you do not have an original then a recon cannot be produced.

The OFT Guidance clearly states that lenders would be acting unfairly, and potentially in breach of their consumer credit licenses, if they misled borrowers by:

hiding or disguising the fact that there was never a proper signed agreement in the first place
providing only a copy of the current terms and conditions, not the original ones


Similarly, in line with recent OFT Guidance surrounding Unenforceability, the OFT has stipulated the following;

Sections 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 outline the information creditors must provide to debtors under fixed-term, running account & Hire Agreements. Under these sections a debtor can pay £1 to get:

a copy of their agreement
copies of some of the other documents mentioned in their agreement
a statement of account


If this information is not provided within 12 working days the debt becomes unenforceable. This means a creditor cannot:

make the debtor pay the debt before they're supposed to
get a court judgment against the debtor


As this account is clearly unenforceable, I expect you to write back and confirm that no further action will be taken and that the account is now closed and no further correspondence will take place.

Yours faithfully,



Although they could rightly argue with bits of this, it clearly tells them they haven't sent what you asked for and should elicit a response.

Hope this helps! :beagle:

[Kazwitch]

Re: Very

Thanks for this. Fingers crossed
Should this be sent to the Chelmsford address or the Bootle address?
The other debts are being paid and sorted without any probs. I always pay the high priority debts before anything.
once I've sent the above letter, do I proceed with monthly payments to Very?
They ignored my emails and keep insisting that I ring them (which I refuse to do), then have the audacity to tell me that if I dont contact them to discuss the debt
it will make things worse. I have been in contact with them throughout.:witchy:

[labman]

Re: Very

You can ask for contact to be in writing only, in line with the OFT Debt Collection Guidelines 664. I've no idea which address you should send it to - whichever you sent the CCA request to I imagine.

In terms of the payment, can you afford it? If you can't you should look at your other debts, and sort out affordable repayments so each gets a pro rata payment through a free self managed DMP such as this excellent one, NEDCAB. This is something we can help you with.

Others will suggest an unenforceability route which has to be your choice. :beagle:

[Kazwitch]

Re: Very

One more thing before I send the letter.
Do I have to give them another 30 days after the 12 days are up? If not, when does the 30 day apply? Sorry for going on but its a lot take in all in 1 go. Thanks Labman :witchy::

[labman]

Re: Very

I am unsure where your 30 days has come from - forgive me if I missed it re-reading the thread. They have failed to comply with your request already, this letter tells them that and asks them to comply. I assume you're talking about struggling to find another payment of £50. If that is what you are referring to, then don't! Pay them what you can afford, no more, no less - you mustn't go short because they're demanding too much.

Please try not to stress over this - it's not an offence to be in debt. Very are putting you under undue pressure because you're a good payer, and have tried hard to repay what you owe. Only pay what you can afford, and we'll make sure you can prove that's all you can afford to them.

Sorry to keep banging on about this, but are you in a position to afford the money Very are asking you to pay? That is something we can help you with.

So, for now, just pay what you can afford and get the letter off to them. Make sure you get at minimum Proof of Posting (this is free); you may decide you want to send it recorded delivery so that you can prove they received it.

:beagle:

[Kazwitch]

Re: Very

Thank you labman.
I can afford £50 so that is all they will be getting, but once the account is unenforceable and in dispute, do I still have to pay this or do I stop? As I thought once an account was in dispute they couldn't do anything with that account and the debtor need not pay? X

[labman]

Re: Very

If you want to go the UE route, there are others around who can probably help you better than I can. However, I can certainly start you on your way. The letter you're sending above states they have 12 days (allow 14 as they can have an extra two for time in post), and then the debt becomes UE. It also specifies what that means.

There is another letter I would send after that 14 day period which tells them clearly you are stopping paying until they comply with your agreement. I'll post it up here now so I don't forget:

CCA Request Final Demand

Dear Sir,

Re. Account No/Reference No: XXXXXXXX

I refer to my letter dated dd/mm/yyyy in which I made a formal request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (CCA1974) s.77-s.79 for a true copy of the regulated agreement referred to in the above account number. You have been reminded several times now that non compliance will result in cessation of payment. You were also reminded that you are obliged to supply this under s.189 whether you are the original creditor or not. I enclosed the statutory fee of £1.00.

To date you have failed to comply with my statutory in respect of this account, so I am left with no option but formally to place it in dispute with you.
Additionally this alleged agreement is unenforceable until such time as you comply with my request in full, or it is enforced by a court of law. It is a further offence to attempt to enforce this alleged agreement until such time as you comply.

Similarly, in line with recent OFT Guidance surrounding Unenforceability, I presume you are aware that the OFT has stipulated that Sections 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 outline the information creditors must provide to debtors under fixed-term, running account & Hire Agreements. They state that under these sections a person can pay £1 to get:

• a copy of their agreement
• copies of some of the other documents mentioned in their agreement
• a statement of account.

If this information is not provided within 12 working days the debt becomes unenforceable. This means a creditor cannot:

• make the debtor pay the debt before they're supposed to
• get a court judgment against the debtor

As this account is clearly unenforceable, not only am I ceasing all payments toward this account, but I expect you to write back and confirm that no further action will be taken, the account is now closed and no further correspondence will take place. Unless you supply a compliant agreement I will not correspond with you again. Any threats will be averred as unlawful and vexatious.

In the meantime I require you to clarify your position on this point, as failure to do so, even by omission or lack of a response, will be regarded as an attempt to deliberately misrepresent or conceal the legal position with regard to this matter.

I await your prompt response.

Yours faithfully,





Sign Digitally

In between the Yours faithfully and 'Sign digitally' I put an anti tamper signature strip, hopefully attached below:

[Kazwitch]

Re: Very

Thank you for that. I sent the 1st letter by recorded delivery. (The one that tells them they've not sent my cca)
I'll keep you posted on what happens next.

[Kazwitch]

Re: Very

Hello. I've just received a letter from shop Direct saying:

"In relation to your request for a copy of your credit agreement, we have provided you with copy of your current credit agreement. This agreement sets out the contractual arrangement that is in place at this time between us and you in relation to your Very account and includes all applicable contractual variants and amendments that have taken place since your account was opened.
It is clear, that by ordering and purchasing goods from us, you acknowledge that there is an existing relationship in place. In the event that you did not believe there was such a relationship it is unlikely you would have bought and continued to buy goods from us.

The latest case law in relation to enforceability of credit agreements has made clear that unenforceability does not mean that the rights of the parties under a credit agreement were never acquired or are extinguished."

So what kind of letter should I send them now? I would just like to point out also, I never opened an account with very. I opened an account with littlewoods who decided to change my account to very. I didn't know if this too, had any baring on things.
Thanks for any more info/ letters you can provide me with.
Kazwitch :witchy:

[labman]

Re: Very

Hi,

Could you post up a redacted copy of the CCA agreement and any Terms and Conditioins they sent in reply to your request please. Let's have a look at what they sent, and we'll move from there.

Thanks. :beagle:

Nobody is saying the rights are extinguished, we're saying the debt is unenforceable at law until such time as they comply fully with your request. That's why I'd like to have a look at the agreement and bumph they sent you.

[Kazwitch]

Re: Very

Hi,
i've emailed a copy to Amethyst so hopefully you'll get the copy :tinysmile_grin_t:

[Amethyst]

Re: Very

Here's the docs xx