Very catalogue debt

[Kazwitch]

Re: Very

Hi. Right the latest is, I rang Very and they wanted my phone number, which I declined to give. No problem there.
They won't even discuss the debt with me or accept any payment unless I go through step change. Can I do anything else as I've tried writing to them, and spoken to them but they refuse to even discuss the account with me. Can they get into trouble for that?

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Very

Can you just refresh my memory please? Where are we with this? Did you send a CCA request? Was there an agreement to start with? Was this account started before April 2007?

Sorry about all the questions, it's been a while and we need to revisit all this to see where we stand. :thumb:

[Kazwitch]

Re: Very

Hi. Yes I requested a CCA and sent £1 back in August/September. . They sent a blank CA unsigned (copy is further back in this post). Account was opened in 2002. I have no signed agreement. I've told them the debt is unenforceable, which they've basically agreed with. Tried sending letters to them, talking to them etc. They're not budging and now won't help at all unless I use stepchange.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Very

Hi. Yes I requested a CCA and sent £1 back in August/September. . They sent a blank CA unsigned (copy is further back in this post). Account was opened in 2002. I have no signed agreement. I've told them the debt is unenforceable, which they've basically agreed with. Tried sending letters to them, talking to them etc. They're not budging and now won't help at all unless I use stepchange.

You'd only go to a place like Stepchange if you wanted to pay... :confused2: The idea of sending a CCA request was to find if, by any chance, they had an agreement (I think I always said it was highly unlikely). What they've sent is just terms and conditions with nothing there to link them to you or suggest you may have agreed to them.

You could write saying something like this:

Dear Sirs

Ref: xyz

On XX/XX/XXXX I wrote requesting that you supply me a true copy of the executed credit agreement for the numbered account. In response to this request I was supplied a document, that can only be described as Terms & Conditions. As the Terms & Conditions did not comply with my CCA Request, nor the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (CCA1974), this account is unenforceable and will remain so until you comply fully and properly to my formal request.

The recent McGuffick and Carey cases confirmed that a lender should submit upon request a valid true copy of the original CCA. Whilst I appreciate and understand the provision of the recent Carey v HSBC case that stipulates a reconstituted agreement can be provided, it does not say you can simply send some generic terms. It should also be noted I am disputing the actual existence of such an agreement, aand without one the account would be deemed unenforceable.

Similarly, the recent McGuffick and Carey cases confirmed that a lender should submit upon request a valid true copy of the original CCA and also went on to suggest that both the creditor and debtors name and address are clearly displayed - the Judge dealt with this point at paragraph 60 of his judgement when he said this:

"As a matter of common sense It is difficult to see how a copy of a document can omit the names of the parties. It might he thought that the address of the debtor, however, was immaterial, at least to the debtor, who can be assumed to know what it was at the time, if different from his present address. However, as noted above any application of the concept of materiality must not override the requirements of section 78 and the Copies Regulations properly understood. In my view it is clear that the name and address must be provided"

In MBNA v McCullagh; the Judge ruled;

"The terms and conditions are plainly not a copy of those on the original agreement. There may only be one difference identified (it is difficult to tell from the illegible copy of the original) but that is enough. The obligation is to provide "a copy of the executed agreement". This plainly cannot be a copy of the original agreement. It is not open to the claimant to say that the difference is 'de minimis'. They have to provide a copy of the original (reconstituted or otherwise)"

There are also several other recent cases that alleviate the Carey Judgment such as Hayes v HFC, at Blackpool county court in July 2010. She successfully overturned a charging order on her home. Judge Bell agreed that the reconstituted agreement was not accurate. Then you have the case of Kotecha v Phoenix in which Phoenix attempted to recover a debt owed on a HFC bank credit card. The appeal judges agreed the bank had not been able to supply an accurate copy of the original agreement.

The OFT Guidance clearly states that lenders would be acting unfairly and potentially in breach of their consumer credit licenses, if they misled borrowers by:

• hiding or disguising the fact that there was never a proper signed agreement in the first place
• providing only a copy of the current terms and conditions, not the original ones

As this account is clearly unenforceable, I expect you to write back and confirm that no further action will be taken and that the account is now closed and no further correspondence will take place.

Yours faithfully,

[Kazwitch]

Re: Very

I have sent them a letter along those lines in which I got a reply saying that although the account is unenforceable, it doesn't mean I don't owe them money and they are still within their rights to hassle. Me for payment and can still keep adding default charges and interest.

[Amethyst]

Re: Very

I still don't get why these companies aren't more reasonable when it comes to people who WANT to pay, especially when they know they have no enforceable credit agreement to speak of.

I would write rather than ring them. When it comes down to it they should have followed the consumer credit act at the time you took out the account with them so I couldn't blame you if you thought sod 'em and went down the 'unenforceable' route and stopped paying and defended any action they tried to bring against you using the CCA.

I, personally, and this has no reflection at all on what you should do it is just me, would feel like "well, I have had all this stuff off these people, and I should pay for it, there wasn't a specific agreement to any terms of repayment under the CCA so they have lost their right to any protection to their benefit so I will work out what the cost of the goods I have had were, and repay that amount."

I'd probably write to them to tell them that's what I was going to do too, and inform them I suggest they accept my repayment proposal because the alternative is that I stop paying and they would be unable to enforce the debt through the court. I'd then tell them I'd pay them £50 a month, as that is what was affordable for me long term, they would be told to stop charging interest and penalty charges, and I;d work out how many months to pay that over until I had paid for the purchase price of the goods I had had. And I'd just set up a standing order to pay that amount and keep solid records of it.

I would be happy at that, and would feel comfortable that if they sold on to a DCA / went to court, I could defend the claim against a CCJ as there was no agreement other than a normal offer, acceptance, consideration type contract, that I had made every effort to make good.

But that's just me and my odd moral compass, and my credit file is pretty screwed already.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Very

I have sent them a letter along those lines in which I got a reply saying that although the account is unenforceable, it doesn't mean I don't owe them money and they are still within their rights to hassle. Me for payment and can still keep adding default charges and interest.

Indeed that's true, and it was confirmed by the McGuffick v RBS case, where it was established that demanding payment does not amount to enforcement. Having said that, once you point out to them that with no agreement they're going nowhere, they do leave you alone, I've not heard from MBNA in two years, and then only the ONE letter in Dec 2011, otherwise last exchange of letters in Dec 2010, nearly 4 years into SBd now :clock: :clock: so it does work! MBNA kept adding interest at a whooping 36% :scared: for 6 months after I stopped paying, still, I'm not paying anything to them so it's all academic. :thumb:

[CleverClogs]

Re: Very

I got a reply saying that although the account is unenforceable, it doesn't mean I don't owe them money

Correct - and you'd still owe the money once the debt became statute barred

and they are still within their rights to hassle. Me for payment

Wrong. Harassment can be a criminal offence.

and can still keep adding default charges and interest.

... which they have bugger all chance of ever enforcing or even of collecting unless you want to pay them because you were impressed with their politeness and courtesy.

[Kazwitch]

Re: Very

The other thing where I dunno where I stand is
I never had an account with Very. My original account was with Littlewoods. They changed it to Very about 6 yrs ago. So where do I go with that case?

[CleverClogs]

Re: Very

The other thing where I dunno where I stand is
I never had an account with Very. My original account was with Littlewoods. They changed it to Very about 6 yrs ago. So where do I go with that case?

It doesn't matter what they choose to call themselves - the facts remain that:

• The debt is unenforceable and will remain so until/unless they produce a twue copy of a document that never existed
• The company might not like certain parts of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 but that law still applies so they can like it or lump it
• That law is hardly new - it was established law before you opened your account
• They were essentially too greedy for new customers to set up procedures to comply with the law - that's their fault, not yours
• They are arrogant gobshytes who seem determined to pretend that they will somehow be able to force you to pay. They can't.
• If they assign or sell the account to a debt collector, there is bugger all the DCA could do other than to write or 'phone if they had your number

I believe I might tell them that, in light of their recent communications, they should take the account and shove it up their arses.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Very

Hello. I've just received a letter from shop Direct saying:

"In relation to your request for a copy of your credit agreement, we have provided you with copy of your current credit agreement. This agreement sets out the contractual arrangement that is in place at this time between us and you in relation to your Very account and includes all applicable contractual variants and amendments that have taken place since your account was opened.
It is clear, that by ordering and purchasing goods from us, you acknowledge that there is an existing relationship in place. In the event that you did not believe there was such a relationship it is unlikely you would have bought and continued to buy goods from us.

The latest case law in relation to enforceability of credit agreements has made clear that unenforceability does not mean that the rights of the parties under a credit agreement were never acquired or are extinguished."

That disingenuous pile of poo should be sent to the Office of Faffing and Twaddling, who might even do something about it.

[Kazwitch]

Re: Very

:lol: hahahahaha that really made me laugh
I'm so tempted to write and tell them that. I've tried to be reasonable and attempt to pay but they're making it nigh on impossible, So I might tell them to poke it. They've shot themselves in the foot so to speak

[Kazwitch]

Re: Very

Right I'm considering sending a letter along the lines of
I am still awaiting original true signed copy of my credit agreement which was requested 30th August 2013. I've tried being reasonable and offered repayment but have been declined. Due to the unhelpful shoddy efforts on your companies behalf, I've decided to with hold all payments until Original CCA has been received by myself. If this isn't supplied I will leave the account to be statute barred. As you've previously pointed out, you are legally allowed to chase me for payment although it could be classed as harrassment. As we both know, the debt is unenforceabl, Its up to me in the kindness of my heart, whether to bother paying anything else. Taking into account the treatment I've been given by yourselfs, its poinless me paying any more as you are obviously unwilling to help in any way shape or form to allow me to clear this debt'

What do you think?

[CleverClogs]

Re: Very

I would say that such a letter would be unwise, as it could be taken as a written acknowledgement of the debt.

For that reason, I would also advise against sending them the "prize draw" letter or, indeed, any letter at all.

[Kazwitch]

Re: Very

Ok
They get £50 next week then that's it. Should I tell them that's the last one till I get my original CCA?