Hi, just joined

[gmleo]

Hello Legal Beagles!

In total less that 30K debt with the fees and costs, and interest. Realistically, more like 18K is my actual debt.

I'm a semi-converted ostrich, in 2008 and 2009 I was on the verge of a nervous breakdown because of the stress and bombardment of threats from debt collectors. After a miserably long struggle I pulled my head from the sand around 2 years ago, following the dizzying effects of the 2008 recession.
All of my debt are credit cards, and a couple of small overdraft facilities with banks, plus interest and charges of course.
I've researched as much as I can online, how to tackle the collection agencies first off. I have them on hold at the moment as I'm neither in a position to pay, I don't acknowledged the debt, many I'm sure are unenforceable and all are pre-April 2007.
I'm trying to cling on a little longer until the 6 years is up, which is soon. First one expires in Jan 2014.
My choices, bankruptcy, or that path I'm on, clinging.
Bankruptcy has been on the table since 2008, and I could have taken it then but didn't, I'd like to avoid it if possible but it keeps raising its head.
I have one obstacle being a CCJ for the largest debt. A Default CCj entered by Arrow Global LTD in my absence for £9,339. Jan 2012.
This debt was defaulted on June 2008.
I made application to have the ruling set aside on the grounds that I didn't receive the Notice until after the hearing had taken place.
Naively I did not know the full story, that I should have made an application to have it set aside on grounds of unenforceable at that time, but didn't. Instead the judge told me of a law that stated the court of Appeals had already made a ruling that states that I did in fact receive the Notice of hearing two days after it was sent (even though it was 2 months later in real life) and so my application to have it set aside was rejected.
They have the CCJ, they have not acted upon it though, which is odd.
Want to know what the Legal Beagle community thinks of a second attempt to have it set aside, I need a miracle I think and though of you, Celestine!

I'm left with the equasion of almost daily, swaying from trying to balance which is less detrimental in the long and short term?
Can I manage with a CCJ of almost 10K hanging over me for the next 5 years plus other debts? Versus going bankrupt then after 12 months my credit rating would start improving.

Hope you can help me guys.
Thanks

[MIKE770]

Re: Hi, just joined

P>M> Cel ask her to look in this thread!

[labman]

Re: Hi, just joined

It's very hard to help you properly in this type of situation without going through a full I&E with you in terms of informal or formal repayment options, but you infer that that is not an option for you, which suggests your disposable income each month is less than £100.

The UE crowd will be along soon. I'm slightly puzzled by one part of your post:

I've researched as much as I can online, how to tackle the collection agencies first off. I have them on hold at the moment as I'm neither in a position to pay, I don't acknowledged the debt, many I'm sure are unenforceable and all are pre-April 2007.
I'm trying to cling on a little longer until the 6 years is up, which is soon. First one expires in Jan 2014.

What have you actually done with the DCA's? Can you clarify 'I have them on hold' as this would suggest some form of written communication, but you equally state clearly you have not acknowledged the debts.

Am I right in my assumption about your disposable income (approximately)? If I'm wrong, you may find there are other options available to you as well as those mentioned.

Realistically in this situation, you need to answer the questions above, as if the debts haven't been acknowledged, it would seem sensible to hold out for SB, and live with the CCJ. BK would be a very drastic choice if you can see them through for 6 months until they become SB. I'm just confused by that statement.

[gmleo]

Re: Hi, just joined

Hi Labman.
I've been on JSA until 6 weeks ago.
I'm now a new start sole trader on NEA - New Enterprise Allowance.
Since 2008 I've ignored all correspondence and not answered calls from DCA's, that's the ostrich part.
Since July 2012 I've requested a true copy of any credit agreements using Consumer Credit Act 1974 sections 77-79.
Only correspondence with the creditors/DCA's have been formal template requests as above.
Two replied, Nationwide is certainly unenforceable, the other I'm unsure.
The remaining who failed to respond I've sent follow up requests to have them removed on the grounds they do have a signed and valid CCA.

This is the last letter I wrote to them, I've not had no response since: -

"Thank you for your reply letter dated 27 November 2012, and accompanying A4 photocopy.

In my letter of the 15 October 2012 I requested a copy of the original signed credit agreement from February 2007 with full breakdown of the account including any interest or charges applied under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 [sections 77-79]
What you have provided me is clearly not what I requested.

I also wrote that the copy of any credit agreement along with a statement of account should be supplied within 12 working days.
This was not supplied within the requested time frame.

I argue the legality and/or enforceability of the provided A4 document.
It is clearly an improperly-executed agreement.
There are no Terms & Conditions, signed or otherwise.
It does not state a credit limit.
It does not state an % APR figure.
It does not contain a repayment figure or plan.
If an agreement is not properly executed, as defined in section 61(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, then Section 65 says that it can only be enforced by a court;

• 65.(1)
  An improperly-executed regulated agreement is enforceable against the debtor or hirer on an order of the court only.

However, the Court's powers to enforce an agreement that is not properly executed, that was entered into before April 2007 are limited by Section 127(3) of the Act;

• 127.(1)
  In the case of an application for an enforcement order under (a) Section 65(1) (improperly executed agreements)....
• 127.(3)
  The court shall not make an enforcement order under Section 65(1) if Section 61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under Section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner)...

The provided document shows a tick in the space provided in reference to PPi. I have proven that this same PPi was mis-sold to me and I am entitled to a refund of said PPi (Ref: *******).
I would further argue that makes this document null and void.

In light of your not being able to provide a properly executed signed credit agreement with terms and conditions as requested, and that the alleged credit agreement date is prior to April 2007 which allows me to challenge under Section 127(3) of the Consumer Credit Act 2006, which came into force in April 2007.

I request that this entire debt be written off in its entirety immediately.
That my credit file be wiped of any outstanding balances.

To highlight again my circumstances, and explain why there is no way I could pay any part of the funds you are requesting and further pursuance is futile.

• I am without work and in receipt of JSA.
• I am in rented accommodation.
• I have no assets of value.
• I have no savings.
• I do not play the lottery.
• This is unlikely to change in the near or foreseeable future.

I would appreciate your dealing with this matter as urgent, and I look forward to receiving your response shortly.

Yours faithfully"

[labman]

Re: Hi, just joined

That reads like a pretty clear acknowledgement to me. If you've only sent CCA's for the others, the template should have stated you acknowledged no debt.

With regards to the above, on what grounds were you asking for it to be written off? :beagle:

[gmleo]

Re: Hi, just joined

Oops, yes you're right, does read like an acknowledgement.
Fortunately I've only sent that to one creditor. Pity I didn't find this site sooner, you could have advised me before I made a mistake.

The first template I sent for the CCA's is below: -

"Dear Sir/Madam
With reference to the above agreement, I would be grateful if you would send me a copy of the original signed credit agreement from October 2004 and a full breakdown of the account including any interest or charges applied.
I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 [sections 77-79], I am entitled to receive a copy of any credit agreement and a statement of account on request.
I enclose a payment of £1 which represents the fee payable under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

I understand a copy of any credit agreement along with a statement of account should be supplied within 12 working days.

I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with the request for a copy of the agreement and statement of account under these sections of the Act."

The grounds for the one above were purely technical flaws that I found from my Google law research.
1- improperly-executed agreement.
2- no Terms & Conditions given at the time. I only received a copy with the CCA request.
3- does not clearly state an % APR figure.
4- does not contain a repayment figure or plan.
5- credit agreement not on one document
6- The credit agreement document has a tick space provided in reference to PPi. I have since reclaimed this same PPi as it was mis-sold to me.
I would argue that in turns makes the whole credit agreement null and void, or at least adds weight to the other 5 points above if presented to a judge.
7- that the relationship between the creditor and myself is irrevocably broken down, damaged through DCA tactics and lack of Trust since they mis-sold me PPi.

[labman]

Re: Hi, just joined

If you've had replies to the CCA requests, surely you must have put some other information on, as all you have asked for is 'a copy of the original signed agreement.' They would have no idea to what you refer.

I'll let the UE people comment on grounds for the agreement being deemed UE - you would almost certainly need to go to court to achieve this, they are unlikely just to write the debt off. It would be helpful if you could post up a redacted version of the agreement you were sent. :beagle:

[gmleo]

Re: Hi, just joined

Account No: **** **** **** 9802 for eg.
I headed each template letter to each creditor with the relevant ref/account numbers.

To reply to your earlier comment Labman as if the debts haven't been acknowledged, it would seem sensible to hold out for SB, and live with the CCJ. BK would be a very drastic choice if you can see them through for 6 months until they become SB.
The First of the debts would be ready for SB in 6 months, the latter is so far almost 5 years when the CCJ expires.
That is providing none of the defaults become CCJ's before SB comes into force.

[labman]

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Sorry, I got the impression most debts would become SB very shortly, and you'd be left with just the CCJ. :beagle:

[gmleo]

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That's one of the things that brought me to this site today, I've been going through my paperwork and trying to match up actual paper dates of default, vs. date of default on the Noddle site. I've found duplicate listings for the same debt, some are totally wrong dates, one is two years out.
Been searching for a definitive answer as to when is the actual default date, from my perspective, the last date a payment was due and missed I presume? Or is it 4 months after that, or when the DCA says so?
They are all from 2008, from Jan to Nov, the majority are set to SB in 2014, except as I mentioned some stray dates of default which are currently throwing out my timetable by two years.

[labman]

Re: Hi, just joined

A recent case stated the default is taken from the date the account is terminated, as up until that point any arrears can be rectified. I suspect that may cause some discussion. :tinysmile_grin_t:

[Celestine]

Re: Hi, just joined

I will take a proper look at this thread tomorrow

[gmleo]

Re: Hi, just joined

Excellent, some discussion would be welcomed.

I'll start digging through my papers to find the Credit Agreement mentioned above and post it on here.
To clarify, this debt we're discussing now was with Nationwide, now with Mkdp Llp and it's the same one I replied to pasted above, where I allegedly acknowledged a debt

[labman]

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Good, thank you. I'll look forward to a read!

[gmleo]

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That's easier said than done, the quality of the Credit Agreement copy sent to me is awful, I can't read it in real life.
Scanned it, photo of it, macro it, it's still crap. Done the first three pages of the agreement which covers the signed part.


The following separate x8 full A4 pages are legible, not scanned those yet.
Reading through the T&C there is a lovely clause which I must share with you.
13f You, or your legal representatives must pay the whole balance if:

• this agreement ends;
• you fail to make a payment in full when it is due;
• you break an important part of this agreement or repeatedly break this agreement and fail to sort out the matter;
• a bankruptcy order is made against you, or you make a voluntary arrangement with your credits; or
• you die

Not sure if the last line is a threat or a demand.
The bankruptcy clause goes against the rules of bankruptcy surely?
From what I've read you're not permitted to settle-up with any creditors after bankruptcy that have been included in the order.
Also prioritizing one debt over another prior to going bankrupt is also not permitted.