Hi, just joined

[Nibbler]

Re: Hi, just joined

The bankruptcy clause goes against the rules of bankruptcy surely?
From what I've read you're not permitted to settle-up with any creditors after bankruptcy that have been included in the order.
Also prioritizing one debt over another prior to going bankrupt is also not permitted.

It is badly worded, but in essence it means that if a bankruptcy order is made against you then the full balance becomes payable.

However, while you are bankrupt the "you" would be your bankruptcy estate not you personally, as all former liabilities are transferred to that. They are also protecting themselves, as if for some reason your bankruptcy was overturned then they retain the right to demand payment in full after that.

Besides, even if they wrote into a contact "if you are made bankrupt this debt will not be covered and you will still be liable to pay" and you signed it, the bankruptcy would by law override that. You cannot sign away the effect of bankruptcy in that way. The Official Receiver would tell any creditor trying to enforce such a clause precisely where they could stick their contact.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Hi, just joined

Hello Legal Beagles!

In total less that 30K debt with the fees and costs, and interest. Realistically, more like 18K is my actual debt.

I'm a semi-converted ostrich, in 2008 and 2009 I was on the verge of a nervous breakdown because of the stress and bombardment of threats from debt collectors. After a miserably long struggle I pulled my head from the sand around 2 years ago, following the dizzying effects of the 2008 recession.
All of my debt are credit cards, and a couple of small overdraft facilities with banks, plus interest and charges of course.
I've researched as much as I can online, how to tackle the collection agencies first off. I have them on hold at the moment as I'm neither in a position to pay, I don't acknowledged the debt, many I'm sure are unenforceable and all are pre-April 2007.
I'm trying to cling on a little longer until the 6 years is up, which is soon. First one expires in Jan 2014.
My choices, bankruptcy, or that path I'm on, clinging.
Bankruptcy has been on the table since 2008, and I could have taken it then but didn't, I'd like to avoid it if possible but it keeps raising its head.

Bankruptcy is a big step and, looking at the above, probably not the best option for you since your debts are not that big - they may seem large to you, but there are some on here with £150k who have managed to keep the wolves away from the door for 4 years :high5:

If they are likely to be UE and one will be SBd next year, I wouldn't really be considering BR.

I have one obstacle being a CCJ for the largest debt. A Default CCj entered by Arrow Global LTD in my absence for £9,339. Jan 2012.
This debt was defaulted on June 2008.
I made application to have the ruling set aside on the grounds that I didn't receive the Notice until after the hearing had taken place.
Naively I did not know the full story, that I should have made an application to have it set aside on grounds of unenforceable at that time, but didn't. Instead the judge told me of a law that stated the court of Appeals had already made a ruling that states that I did in fact receive the Notice of hearing two days after it was sent (even though it was 2 months later in real life) and so my application to have it set aside was rejected.

You can have a CCJ set aside on the grounds that you didn't receive the court papers but you'd have to meet 2 basic requirements:

• Show the court the claimant had your current address at the time the claim was made and
• Show good prospects of defending the claim, otherwise the whole exercise would be a waste of time

The unenforceability argument in itself is not enough to have a CCJ set aside once it has been obtained, however, it can go towards showing you have a good prospect of defending the claim, see this for reference: http://www.nationaldebtline.co.uk/en...e_county_court

They have the CCJ, they have not acted upon it though, which is odd.
Want to know what the Legal Beagle community thinks of a second attempt to have it set aside, I need a miracle I think and though of you, Celestine!

The creditor will have to go back to the court to enforce the CCJ, if it was obtained years ago, they would have to justify not having attempted enforcement earlier, however, if it was only last year it may not be that hard for them. They could enforce it with an attachment of earnings (if you are in employment), a charging order (if you own property) or, less commonly for this type of debt, a Warrant of Execution that would allow them to send bailiffs.

I'm left with the equasion of almost daily, swaying from trying to balance which is less detrimental in the long and short term?
Can I manage with a CCJ of almost 10K hanging over me for the next 5 years plus other debts? Versus going bankrupt then after 12 months my credit rating would start improving.

You may be discharged after 12 months but your BR would be on file for 6 years. You would struggle to open a bank account and it would be an obstacle to certain types of employment and renting a property to live in. It really is the last resort rather than a quick fix.

With regards to the CCJ, those don't go SBd after 6 years, however, many people with CCJs make affordable payments, even a court cannot order you to pay what you can't afford. If you are on benefits, you can get away with paying just £1 a month. There are people who've been paying £5/month on a CCJ all the way from the early 90s! :thumb:

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Hi, just joined

Since 2008 I've ignored all correspondence and not answered calls from DCA's, that's the ostrich part.
Since July 2012 I've requested a true copy of any credit agreements using Consumer Credit Act 1974 sections 77-79.
Only correspondence with the creditors/DCA's have been formal template requests as above.
Two replied, Nationwide is certainly unenforceable, the other I'm unsure.
The remaining who failed to respond I've sent follow up requests to have them removed on the grounds they do have a signed and valid CCA.

If you haven't made any payments since 2008 these accounts would be closed to Statute Barred by now (your profile says you are in England not Scotland, otherwise they could be SBd by now )

Even if they can't find a copy of your agreement, it's unlikely they will agree to write the debt off and/or remove the default from your credit files.

It would be useful if you could give us more details about all your debts including outstanding amounts and what they were for, if they were overdrafts then a standard CCA request wouldn't apply.

That reads like a pretty clear acknowledgement to me. If you've only sent CCA's for the others, the template should have stated you acknowledged no debt.

Not all templates include that sentence as you know yet it's commonly accepted that a CCA request does not constitute acknowledgment. :noidea:

[Celestine]

Re: Hi, just joined

That's one of the things that brought me to this site today, I've been going through my paperwork and trying to match up actual paper dates of default, vs. date of default on the Noddle site. I've found duplicate listings for the same debt, some are totally wrong dates, one is two years out.
Been searching for a definitive answer as to when is the actual default date, from my perspective, the last date a payment was due and missed I presume? Or is it 4 months after that, or when the DCA says so?
They are all from 2008, from Jan to Nov, the majority are set to SB in 2014, except as I mentioned some stray dates of default which are currently throwing out my timetable by two years.

Just catching up with this thread:

Firstly - Ignore dates of 'default notices' in relation to default markers on your credit file. They bare little if any relation to each other.

[Celestine]

Re: Hi, just joined

GMLEO - Can you scan the document (without anonymising) and email it to admin@legalbeagles.info I also need to see the 8 pages of further docs please?

Can you also tell me what you recall about opening the MBNA card whose application is exhibited at post 15? Why did you take out the card? How did you come by the application form? A shop/magazine insert/mailshot?? Do you recall any special offers or incentives?

[CleverClogs]

Re: Hi, just joined

Can you also tell me what you recall about opening the MBNA card whose application is exhibited at post 15? Why did you take out the card? How did you come by the application form? A shop/magazine insert/mailshot?? Do you recall any special offers or incentives?

I see that you've noticed that it was an "Abbey National" card and also the "Promo IX" near his signature.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Hi, just joined

It's possible that those terms were sent out with the card, rather than presented at the time of applying for it, that was often the case and (correct me if I'm wrong :noidea, would render the account UE as the debtor wouldn't have agreed to them when he applied for the product. :thumb:

[gmleo]

Re: Hi, just joined

Thanks Flaming Parrot & Celestine for your posts, I'm flat out busy this week, will scan the other 8 pages asap.

The card was "Abbey National" yes, I don't recall how I applied or found the application, been over 10 years.
The reason for getting the card. I didn't even want a credit card at the time, I read on Moneysavingexpert in order to improve your credit rating, you actually need to have some credit. From 2004 to 2008 I was preparing to get a mortgage as I was planning (still am) on property developing.
I had an account with Abbey National, who then changed to Abbey. Pretty sure I banked with Abbey National at the time I got the card, so more than likely I applied online, though it's possible I picked up an application at the branch. Given the choice I'd have gone online to do it, faster response.
Pretty sure that had a 0% interest offer at the time and I think it was a long one too, for 12 or 15 months?
As suggested by MoneySaviungExpert I was "credit card tarting" until the recession and the banks put a stop to that overnight, and hey presto, here I am.

FlamingParrot you wrote

With regards to the CCJ, those don't go SBd after 6 years,

.
Eh? I thought CCJ did expire after 6 years?
Creditor can reapply for another 6 years prior to the end of the first one, but rarely do.
Can you elaborate pls?

Thx

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Hi, just joined

I had an account with Abbey National, who then changed to Abbey. Pretty sure I banked with Abbey National at the time I got the card, so more than likely I applied online, though it's possible I picked up an application at the branch. Given the choice I'd have gone online to do it, faster response.

The Abbey was taken over by Santander in July 2004 but I see you applied in April, so it still would have been Abbey. If you applied online in 2004, they would still have been required to send you an agreement to sign and return, the change in regulations that allowed a tick box to act as a signature for online applications didn't come into effect till January 2005 :thumb:

Pretty sure that had a 0% interest offer at the time and I think it was a long one too, for 12 or 15 months?
As suggested by MoneySaviungExpert I was "credit card tarting" until the recession and the banks put a stop to that overnight, and hey presto, here I am.

Indeed, the global financial meltdown put a stop to everything thanks to the banks! :mad2: :mad2:

FlamingParrot you wrote .
Eh? I thought CCJ did expire after 6 years?
Creditor can reapply for another 6 years prior to the end of the first one, but rarely do.
Can you elaborate pls?

Thx

The CCJ will be removed from the public record as well as your credit file after 6 years but the judgment still exists and it can still be enforced. The issue is when a CCJ has been obtained but the debtor has not been making payments into it and the creditor has not taken steps to enforce it, then it may be hard to justify to the court that no action has been taken to enforce it in such a long time.

[gmleo]

Re: Hi, just joined

I see !

They obtained the CCJ in Jan 2012 in my absence. I think the judgement said I should pay £50 a month if I recall.
I tried to get the application to get it set aside, I think in May of the same year coupled with a letter saying "No way, £50!! Can't afford that" or words to that affect.
Between Jan & May it was I was in limbo, the judge wouldn't remove it in the interim so it stayed.
Anyway a long story short, I've not made a single payment toward the CCJ.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Hi, just joined

I see !

They obtained the CCJ in Jan 2012 in my absence. I think the judgement said I should pay £50 a month if I recall.
I tried to get the application to get it set aside, I think in May of the same year coupled with a letter saying "No way, £50!! Can't afford that" or words to that affect.
Between Jan & May it was I was in limbo, the judge wouldn't remove it in the interim so it stayed.
Anyway a long story short, I've not made a single payment toward the CCJ.

As the CCJ wasn't set aside and it has just been over a year since it was obtained, you have to bear in mind that they can apply to the court to enforce the CCJ. The most common ways are by obtaining a charge on your property (if you own one), an attachment of earnings (provided you are an employee) or a warrant of execution so the can send bailiffs to seize goods.

See this for reference: https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-...rce-a-judgment

[gmleo]

Re: Hi, just joined

It would be useful if you could give us more details about all your debts including outstanding amounts and what they were for, if they were overdrafts then a standard CCA request wouldn't apply.

FP. I'll write a list of the entire debts and list them if you like... I was going to do that but wasn't sure if this was the forum for it.
Thought it might get too complicated.
Majority are Credit Cards.

Credit Cards
MBNA - Arrow Global LLC £9,659.84 - Opened May 2004/ Default date 30/06/2008/ CCJ 17-01-2012
EGG - Lowell £6,383.28 - Opened October 2004/ Default date 01/05/2008
Nationwide - Mkdp Llp £5,065.13 - Opened February 2007/ Default date 13/11/2008 -11/01/2008
CITI Cards - 1st Credit Ltd £4,155.95 - Opened February 2007/ Default date 30/09/2008

Total Credit Cards £25,264.20

Banks
Abbey £1,518.86 - Default date 09/02/2008 (noddle)
Alliance & Leicester £1,289.75 - Default date 22/01/2008 (noddle)
Nationwide £785.97 - Default date 02/03/2011 (noddle)
First Direct £650.00 - In use

Total Banks £4,244.58

Misc
Screwfix /TA **** **** £438 - CCJ 19-01-2010

Grand Total £29,508.78

Screwfix was mistake, doing my ostrich impression at the time and didn't open the letter for a year.
Would have paid it at the time had I realised.

[gmleo]

Re: Hi, just joined

FB. Well I'm in rented accommodation, self employed (recent) and have no assets to speak of, having been preparing myself for possible bankruptcy route so already downgraded the car for a £1,500 crappy van for work, so, really, nothing they can do or take from me.
That's fine for this week, or this month, but not for the next 5 years, I can't live with the threat of that over me.

Let me see if I have this correct.
The CCJ never dies, it's just removed from record after 6 years but can still be enforced?
How about when the creditor applies for enforcement of the said CCJ, would I get the opportunity to attend, and to defend?
I already have a hard time with the law saying it's OK to maintain a CCJ on a debt/contract that is later found to be UE.
I have an even harder time accepting a judge saying it's OK to Enforce that same CCJ 18 months later, knowing full well the contract is loo roll, and UE.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Hi, just joined

Thanks for doing that, it's very nice and clear! :thumb:

Do you think you could edit your post to add the approximate start date, i.e. when you took out the card? :confused2: It doesn't have to be an exact date, the most important thing is to find out whether it was before or after April 2007 or, if applied online, before or after January 2005, so it would help if you also indicated whether you applied online (especially if it was AFTER Jan 2005). :typing:

The ones headed 'Banks', are they overdrafts?

[gmleo]

Re: Hi, just joined

Banks are overdrafts yes, overdrafts plus their fees which were illegal, then not illegal the following week.
I'll sort out the start dates, will get on with that along with the scans for Celestine of the T&C.