Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

[Bill-K]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

I was wondering if you'd take me to task on this, Mr. L. I mentally wrestled with the twists and turns of this, as I have the brain of neither a lawyer nor an accountant, and I'm relieved that you agreed with my understanding of this aspect. The final paragraph was in fact an opinion expressed by my learnéd friend, and I agreed with it - as I understood it.

My understanding of it is that the OC has NO right to pass any of the PPI refund to the DCA. I'm not sure that 'theft' would stick, realistically, but 'misappropriation' seems a fair point to kick the ball from.

[labman]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

Well answered that man, a true Alpha male, silverback answer! - so I guess the next question which follows logically from the above post is, "What can be done about misappropriation?"

Are you able to ask your friend what remedies are available to us? Let's hope he / she doesn't say the FOS!

[Bill-K]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

Well, I try not to dodge straight questions, as I'm not a politician, either !!!

Had a response from my 'guru.' She :eyebrows: agrees that this would hardly be seen as a criminal matter, so the borrower could argue - in a civil court - that the original contract was made between the borrower and the OC, and the OC's duties in respect of any PPI refund under that contract still exist. In effect, it could be argued that no contract exists between the OC and the DCA - with regard to any PPI refund.

I guess it also then follows that the DCA has no right to receive any refund from the OC, if I understand this.
In an Equitable assignment, the DCA is acting only as a collection agent for the OC, so the OC then retains the right to 'appropriate' any or all of a PPI refund to offset any arrears. There would be no reason, nor any duty, for the OC to pass this on to the DCA.

[Caspar]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

That's great thanks Bill. Apologies for your friend's sex change! It's funny how us males assume the poster is male.

I agree with her logic in everything above, and indeed in an Equitable Assignment, the right of offset still clearly stands.

My take now is that we ask EXC to question the OFT on this and find their answer, but also question them if they say the OC can pass it on after an Assignment in Absolute as to how, and under what legislation.

Re the Civil Courts I think this is probably, to my mind, more one of those 'theoretical' solutions rather than a 'realistic' solution. Look at Sparkie! That says much about how courts view these things. I think Di had it spot on when she said it is best to try to negotiate with the OC before it gets to this stage. At the end of the day, they've had their money back anyway, so it makes no difference to them whether the money goes to the DCA or as it should, to the claimant. If cards are played right, I can't see them putting up too much of a fight, especially if court is mentioned, as it's all costing them money and time for which they get no gain.

I feel we're getting somewhere. Took a decent Welsh lass to get us here though!

[jax50]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

Bill-K, Would you say this applied to any refund, not just PPI ? In the same circumstances where an OC remains liable for the original contract and has agreed to refund 'monies' (unfair fees and charges in this case), but insists on 'paying this off the outstanding balance ' with a 3rd party DCA ? That is a DCA with legal assignment (not equitable).

[di30]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

Wow lots of interesting reading here to do , excellent stuff, thank you folks and so happy this thread has taken off well, "Cels" idea .

And welcome back Casper, not seen you in a while, hope all are well, and thank you too for your input.

[EXC]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

Just waiting on the credit dept to get back to me and then we can ask them some more specific questions.

Hi Mark

We have a query regarding the right of set-off by lenderswhich I realize isn’t answerable by your department but we were wondering ifyou could put us in touch with the relevant OFT department that could assist uswith it.

Essentially it involves the growing practice of some banksto off-set PPI compensation awards to debts that have been sold on/assigned tothird parties and we’d like some clarification on the rules. We’d be gratefulif you could give us the contact details of who we should ask.

Also, when are you expecting to publish your report on thePCA market?

Regards

Nick

Hi Nick,
I have forwarded your query to colleagues in credit who may be able to help you further.
On our review, the intention is still to publish this year, but the deadline is tight and there may be some slippage.
Regards
Mark

The Office of Fair Trading
Fleetbank House, 2-6 Salisbury Square, London EC4Y 8JX
Switchboard (020) 7211 8000 Web Site: http://www.oft.gov.uk

[enaid]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

mmmmmmmmmmmm slippage pmsl

[di30]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

Lmao Di x

[labman]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

mmmmmmmmmmmm slippage pmsl

Does it really matter now lol? I certainly hope not.

Strange how automatic pilot kicks in when you're really tired pmsl

[di30]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

Ooh thank you EXC.

Will be keeping a close eye on this, cheers from me and on behalf of everyone here.

[EXC]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

No probs but don't hold your breath - there may be some slippage with their response!

[Bill-K]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

LOL - Well, why bark yourself if you have a dog, Labman ? !!! Actually, you did allow for my friend to be either sex - so I took up your invitation !!! TBH, she's a feisty old Bird, and is often mistaken for a male.

Sure - actually taking that appropriation argument into court would be a 'bench too far' in most cases, and we're better to just keep at the OC in a 'war of attrition,' and hope they eventually give in because they cannot argue any further.

I see EXC has already been in touch with the OFT, so I guess we need to sketch out a number of distinct scenarios to put to them. Thanks for your help in here, EXC.

And indeed, thanks Di - and Cel - for kicking this off.

[Bill-K]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

Bill-K, Would you say this applied to any refund, not just PPI ? In the same circumstances where an OC remains liable for the original contract and has agreed to refund 'monies' (unfair fees and charges in this case), but insists on 'paying this off the outstanding balance ' with a 3rd party DCA ? That is a DCA with legal assignment (not equitable).

Well, based on my limited and recently-acquired understanding of this, I would say that it could be applied to any refund - but I think this would depend on the nature of the refund, or more accurately, the contract(s) relevant to the cause of the refund. Just my guess, though. I'm thinking that regulated loans and credit cards would be OK., but where the CCA isn't involved, then we may need to check what contracts (if any) are involved, and what laws or regulations then apply. For instance, mortgage PPI, overdraft charges, packaged bank accounts etc., may not automatically be covered in the same way as CCA-regulated contracts.

I'd welcome comment and dissent, though, as I'm out of my depth, really.

[jax50]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

Just waiting on the credit dept to get back to me and then we can ask them some more specific questions.

Hi Mark

We have a query regarding the right of set-off by lenderswhich I realize isn’t answerable by your department but we were wondering ifyou could put us in touch with the relevant OFT department that could assist uswith it.

Essentially it involves the growing practice of some banksto off-set PPI compensation awards to debts that have been sold on/assigned tothird parties and we’d like some clarification on the rules. We’d be gratefulif you could give us the contact details of who we should ask.

Also, when are you expecting to publish your report on thePCA market?

Regards

Nick

Hi Nick,
I have forwarded your query to colleagues in credit who may be able to help you further.
On our review, the intention is still to publish this year, but the deadline is tight and there may be some slippage.
Regards
Mark

The Office of Fair Trading
Fleetbank House, 2-6 Salisbury Square, London EC4Y 8JX
Switchboard (020) 7211 8000 Web Site: http://www.oft.gov.uk

Do you think the above enquiry would embrace all refunds, not just PPI ? Where an OC has misapplied charges and later conceded this was unfair (and by later I mean several years later), and agreed to refund ...then the same issue arises as to how this is undertaken.