is my Halifax credit agreement signed in 2006 properly executed?

[tigereye]

Hello there, I have a credit card agreement that I would like to check (outstanding balance around £1800). It was taken in 2006 and I have paid an extorsionist amount of interests already on it for more than two years. The balance remains more or less unchanged while interest accrued and at one point I realised I was paying too slowly to ever clear my balance!

In 2008 I was advised to dispute it on the ground of the copy they sent me not having the creditor signature. This worked perfectly for a few years (I had a few agencies sending me letters but I have dealt with by mentioning the lack of compliance and they would just disappear and sell the debt to someone else). Now another agency must have bought the debt and it's reclaming payment. They wrote to me and made me aware that the terms have changed, after the judgement Carey v HSBC the credit agreement will be considered enforceable even without the creditor signature.

For this reason I would like to make sure whether this agreement is properly executed as the rules have changed and new judgements have been made, perhaps this agreement is now enforceable.

I would be most grateful if someone could have a look at the file attached (it has been already anonymised) and let me know where I stand.

Best wishes,

Tiger

[jax50]

Re: is my Halifax credit agreement signed in 2006 properly executed?

Hello there, I have a credit card agreement that I would like to check (outstanding balance around £1800). It was taken in 2006 and I have paid an extorsionist amount of interests already on it for more than two years. The balance remains more or less unchanged while interest accrued and at one point I realised I was paying too slowly to ever clear my balance!

In 2008 I was advised to dispute it on the ground of the copy they sent me not having the creditor signature. This worked perfectly for a few years (I had a few agencies sending me letters but I have dealt with by mentioning the lack of compliance and they would just disappear and sell the debt to someone else). Now another agency must have bought the debt and it's reclaming payment. They wrote to me and made me aware that the terms have changed, after the judgement Carey v HSBC the credit agreement will be considered enforceable even without the creditor signature.

For this reason I would like to make sure whether this agreement is properly executed as the rules have changed and new judgements have been made, perhaps this agreement is now enforceable.

I would be most grateful if someone could have a look at the file attached (it has been already anonymised) and let me know where I stand.

Best wishes,

Tiger

bumped

[tigereye]

Re: is my Halifax credit agreement signed in 2006 properly executed?

bumped

sorry what BUMPED means? I hope it's a positive remark...

anyway I have an update regarding this agreement. I have found that previously A DIFFERENT credit agreement was sent to me by the original creditor (Halifax), with different details regarding interest rates and a different format/layout of the elements in the agreement. I gather that the second one (attached to this thread) has been created artificially. This is a serious legal issue, and I have both copies of the agreements they sent me to show in Court if necessary.

I am now writing another letter to Lowell/Red regarding this and I am sure after I present them with this clear evidence of forgery they will just disappear

I will post an update, but in the meantime I will try to also upload this second credit agreement (although not really sure whether anyone is reading and checking this post at part from BUMPED (Jax50!)

[dogtired]

Re: is my Halifax credit agreement signed in 2006 properly executed?

As I understand it Jax "bumped" your post in order that someone with more knowledge would come along and advise and help you.So I will do the same as I have had similar problems with HBOS! but as each case is different I do not want to tell you the wrong thing.

[miliitant]

Re: is my Halifax credit agreement signed in 2006 properly executed?

i am led to believe that the carey judgement does not apply to agreements made before april 2007

if any perscribed terms are missing from the agreemnt then the agreement cannot be enforced, even by a court

[tigereye]

Re: is my Halifax credit agreement signed in 2006 properly executed?

Thanks a lot DogTired, appreciated
I am attaching the other credit agreement, which was the first one sent to me back in the 2009 when I first disputed the account with Halifax.

I hope someone will be able to understand better than me what happened there! My guess is that being the first agreement highly irregular they must have drafted a second one at some point, to make up for the irregularities...although to be honest it seems an immensely stupid thing to do (how they did not think about my previous correspondence and requests regarding the original agreement and that I must have saved previous copies sent to me??).

[tigereye]

Re: is my Halifax credit agreement signed in 2006 properly executed?

Thnaks Militant, it sounds very reassuring. In all my letters to them I pressed on this point but they keep saying that this new judgement applied also to my agreement.

BUT now with the incident regarding TWO different agreements, the situation changes altogether, don't you think?

[tigereye]

Re: is my Halifax credit agreement signed in 2006 properly executed?

here the other Halifax agreement

[mystery1]

Re: is my Halifax credit agreement signed in 2006 properly executed?

i am led to believe that the carey judgement does not apply to agreements made before april 2007

if any perscribed terms are missing from the agreemnt then the agreement cannot be enforced, even by a court

Did you mean Wilson ?

Carey applies to all agreements and dealt with s77/78/79.

M1

[miliitant]

Re: is my Halifax credit agreement signed in 2006 properly executed?

yes,wilson

my mistake

carey superseeded wilson

[mystery1]

Re: is my Halifax credit agreement signed in 2006 properly executed?

Carey and Wilson are concerning different sections of the cca.

Wilson ref s127(3), Carey ref s77/8/9 and copy regulations.

M1

[miliitant]

Re: is my Halifax credit agreement signed in 2006 properly executed?

yes wilson is enforceability as in wilson v fct as i remember (total charge for credit) acceptance fee etc

carey is reconstructed agreements and what is enforcement with modified terms

[Bill-K]

Re: is my Halifax credit agreement signed in 2006 properly executed?

Somewhat apocryphal, as I can't add to M1 & Militant's excellent stuff - but for Tiger's info, I believe 'BUMP' was originally an acronym for 'Bring Up My Post,' acting as a sort of reminder. If a post is unanswered for a while, then just posting the word 'BUMP' - or anything for that matter - brings it to the top of the list of recently-active threads.

[tigereye]

Re: is my Halifax credit agreement signed in 2006 properly executed?

thanks everyone for your input...I am still confused on this

Yes, for what I have been reading, "Carey vs HSBO" judgement has changed the whole positions of debtors claiming unenforceable/improprely executed agreements with regard to the lack of creditor signature and a few other things (even in agreements pre-April 2006) so that agreements can actually be reconstituted from different documents instead of providing the original signed agreement.

BUT in my case now the matter is totally different: providing two different agreements to validate the same debt is pure forgery. Have you ever come across anything like it before?

[basa48]

Re: is my Halifax credit agreement signed in 2006 properly executed?

thanks everyone for your input...I am still confused on this

Yes, for what I have been reading, "Carey vs HSBO" judgement has changed the whole positions of debtors claiming unenforceable/improprely executed agreements with regard to the lack of creditor signature and a few other things (even in agreements pre-April 2006) so that agreements can actually be reconstituted from different documents instead of providing the original signed agreement.

BUT in my case now the matter is totally different: providing two different agreements to validate the same debt is pure forgery. Have you ever come across anything like it before?

IMO Carey only allows reconstituted agreements (with no sig) as information regarding what the creditor suggests is what you would have signed (i.e the T&Cs). It does not prove an agreement was signed and especially if the agreement was ever changed (e.g. interest rate).

IMO a creditor still has to produce a copy of the original signed agreement to prove compliance with s61.

Unless you signed both those agreements (and I can't think of any situations that would require that - unless there are two debts) it is clear one is a forgery, or at least an attempt to deceive.

Do both sigs look like yours and is the handwriting of the date look like yours. Which if any do you think is genuine (actually don't answer that on forum - people watch these forums who may have an interest in this case!).

Whatever, you have very good case to cast doubt on if you signed anything since either or both could be fake. You should never admit to signing anything, but don't deny either just state you cannot recall. Also do not deny the debt, just the legal obligation to repay it.