message for bluebottle

[labman]

Re: message for bluebottle

Does sending it recorded delivery automatically make it lawful, even totally ignoring the EU Directives?

Unless you know for certain that nobody could claim better title to the debt, it matters not one jot whether it is sent by recorded delivery or carrier pigeon.

A debt is a chose in action, so unless the owner is willing to prove good title one could argue it is unwise to deal with them. As it was put previously on LB, you would not buy a car from someone down the pub without proof of ownership.

In the case of the debt, the only way to get to see this would be to force disclosure of the actual Deed of Assignment itself through CPR31 which would involve court proceedings.

The question you are asking cannot be answered with a simple answer. The law is apparently conflicting, and even if one disregards one of these conflicting pieces of legislation, it still does not make it legal, as how can you be sure someone else does not have better title without seeing the Deed?

[bluebottle]

Re: message for bluebottle

Does sending it recorded delivery automatically make it lawful, even totally ignoring the EU Directives?

Unless you know for certain that nobody could claim better title to the debt, it matters not one jot whether it is sent by recorded delivery or carrier pigeon.

A debt is a chose in action, so unless the owner is willing to prove good title one could argue it is unwise to deal with them. As it was put previously on LB, you would not buy a car from someone down the pub without proof of ownership.

In the case of the debt, the only way to get to see this would be to force disclosure of the actual Deed of Assignment itself through CPR31 which would involve court proceedings.

The question you are asking cannot be answered with a simple answer. The law is apparently conflicting, and even if one disregards one of these conflicting pieces of legislation, it still does not make it legal, as how can you be sure someone else does not have better title without seeing the Deed?

You raise very valid points, Labman. Section 196(4), Law of Property Act 1925 states that delivery of a notice must be by Registered Post, not Recorded Delivery. In my experience, quite a few of the judges I have had dealings with were sticklers for following correct procedures. You may get the odd one who gives a creditor/DCA a bit of leeway, but, in my experience, that is rare. I agree with you entirely that if a creditor or DCA refuses to disclose the actual Deed of Assignment, it would require a court order. And I also agree that how can one be sure that someone else does not have better title without seeing the Deed.

Personally, if a DCA sent me a letter saying they had been assigned a debt I owed, my immediate reaction - ex-copper again - would be to ask for a Certified Copy of the Deed or Notice or the original. That's the only way a DCA can prove ownership.

[miliitant]

Re: message for bluebottle

what i can say is i have seen off a court claim against a dca with LOP 1925 196 (4)

THE DCA DID NOT WANT TO RUN WITH IT AT A TRIAL AND WITHDREW THE CLAIM

i ended up with a wasted costs order against the dca

it does not prove my defense was valid as it was not tested but we need case law to finally answer this question and untill a dca goes all the way to the end

WE WILL NEVER KNOW

thanks for the debate people, keeps the grey cells going

[bluebottle]

Re: message for bluebottle

what i can say is i have seen off a court claim against a dca with LOP 1925 196 (4)

THE DCA DID NOT WANT TO RUN WITH IT AT A TRIAL AND WITHDREW THE CLAIM

i ended up with a wasted costs order against the dca

it does not prove my defense was valid as it was not tested but we need case law to finally answer this question and untill a dca goes all the way to the end

WE WILL NEVER KNOW

thanks for the debate people, keeps the grey cells going

The case involving Section 196(4) LOPA 1925 sounds like it had a judge that was a stickler for correct procedure. If the DCA sent it by Recorded Delivery, they did not comply with the law to the letter. That may be one of the reasons they withdrew the claim, though, I have a sneaking suspicion it was probably that the notice was defective and they knew they would drop themselves in the slurry pit.

[labman]

Re: message for bluebottle

It's always good to debate things, and one of the strengths of this site is we can do so sensibly.

This subject has been raised before, hence me pinching the final argument from someone else as I remembered it (Charity?) It will doubtless be argued again, and other issues probably raised.

An enjoyable and informative debate, as you say we need caselaw. :beagle:

[miliitant]

Re: message for bluebottle

Acccounts have to be terminated before they are sold to aDCA dont they.
Upon termination all liabilitirs under the contract become due, this is not a loan of any kind at this point.

Bernie

beg to differ

the rights and duties of an account can be sold at any time

an account does not have to be terminated or defaulted to be sold to another party

woolwich building society being sold to barclays for instance

[berniel]

Re: message for bluebottle

beg to differ

the rights and duties of an account can be sold at any time

an account does not have to be terminated or defaulted to be sold to another party

woolwich building society being sold to barclays for instance

This is true however the recieving party would have to be able to support the functioning of the account. DCAs cant, they can only collect sums due under the contract. Sums only become due under a contract post termination.

Bernie

[bluebottle]

Re: message for bluebottle

When Barclays took over Woolwich Building Society, they would have taken on its liabilities as well as its assets, including any debts owing to WBS at the time of takeover. WBS members had to consent to the merger as WBS was a mutual.

It's the same if two banks merge. I'm a Santander shareholder (and customer) and had to agree to Abbey National demutualising and becoming a Plc and then, when it merged with Banco Santander SA. Accounts cannot be bought and sold at will; they require the consent of the account holder.

What Bernie says is correct about the receiving party having to be able to support the functioning of the account and where DCAs are concerned, that is, they can only collect sums due where a contract has ended, not while it is still in force.

[winner12]

Re: message for bluebottle

Hi
Just wanted to say Barclays sold my debt to Crapbot but they did send a goodbye letter before crapbot sent there hello letter so im paying Crapbot
But Cap 1 just pass me around DCA without telling me anything with 3 or 4 now all chasing at the same time
Cap 1 have never sent asssignments in any shape or form and none of their DCA have ever replied to prove it letters either they have threatened all sorts

Lowells sent hello goodbye in the same envelope for another debt, I had put this debt in dispute and told them as soon as they started contacting me
They replied with a copy of a application form stating it was a valid CCA so pay up
or else but it was a very bad CUT & COPY job I told them so and have not heard from them since
My point being as a debtor how far do you want to make your point are you going to challenge their documents in court this seems to be where the risk starts
They can send all kinds of documents purporting to be genuine even official looking court papers sometimes its better to file and wait to see how far they push it as Court cases if not ruled in your favour can be very very expensive

[miliitant]

Re: message for bluebottle

This is true however the recieving party would have to be able to support the functioning of the account. DCAs cant, they can only collect sums due under the contract. Sums only become due under a contract post termination.

Bernie

lowell git their wrists slapped by the ICO i believe (cant confirm) as they were purchasing debts from cap one/barclays (whoever) and updating the persons credit file with the service as credit card when the dca does not offer a credit card service

(happened to me)

a dca can also collect a debt on behalf of aN ORIGINAL creditor also. they only need the creditors permission, they cant commence legal action etc without the creditors permission and any legal action must be in the original creditors name, not the DCA

an account does not have to be terminated for a dca to demand payment if they are acting on behalf of the creditor

it all depends if an account has been assigned to the DCA

[bluebottle]

Re: message for bluebottle

Hi
Just wanted to say Barclays sold my debt to Crapbot but they did send a goodbye letter before crapbot sent there hello letter so im paying Crapbot
But Cap 1 just pass me around DCA without telling me anything with 3 or 4 now all chasing at the same time
Cap 1 have never sent asssignments in any shape or form and none of their DCA have ever replied to prove it letters either they have threatened all sorts

Lowells sent hello goodbye in the same envelope for another debt, I had put this debt in dispute and told them as soon as they started contacting me
They replied with a copy of a application form stating it was a valid CCA so pay up
or else but it was a very bad CUT & COPY job I told them so and have not heard from them since
My point being as a debtor how far do you want to make your point are you going to challenge their documents in court this seems to be where the risk starts
They can send all kinds of documents purporting to be genuine even official looking court papers sometimes its better to file and wait to see how far they push it as Court cases if not ruled in your favour can be very very expensive

If you have any doubts about the authenticity of any agreement or other document, always ask for a Certified Copy. This is a photocopy of the original document that has a statement either stamped or handwritten on it, dated and signed, in ink, to certify that it is a genuine copy of the original.

I have had a lot to do with Certified Copies, both during my time as a CID officer and, latterly, as a charity trustee.

If a DCA asks what a Certified Copy is, don't tell them, but tell them they should know what it is or to speak to a legal professional. If anything, it will slow things down or bugger them completely. Debtors have a right to establish whether an alleged debt is genuine or not.

A Certified Copy should be provided by the creditor or, if the creditor has passed the original of the agreement to the DCA (unlikely), the DCA.

My advice is to always ask for a Certified Copy of any document. If debtors or alleged debtors can get into the habit of asking for Certified Copies and refusing to accept anything else, the debt collection industry will, hopefully, smarten its collective act up and creditors will learn to exercise more care when and before instructing their threat monkeys.

[berniel]

Re: message for bluebottle

lowell git their wrists slapped by the ICO i believe (cant confirm) as they were purchasing debts from cap one/barclays (whoever) and updating the persons credit file with the service as credit card when the dca does not offer a credit card service

(happened to me)

a dca can also collect a debt on behalf of aN ORIGINAL creditor also. they only need the creditors permission, they cant commence legal action etc without the creditors permission and any legal action must be in the original creditors name, not the DCA

an account does not have to be terminated for a dca to demand payment if they are acting on behalf of the creditor

it all depends if an account has been assigned to the DCA

Yes ICO guidlines permit the agency handling the debt to update the credit file.
I think what you are reffering to here is an equitable assignment.
This is a common device wher the OC sells the equity only to the collection agency, all rights and obligations under the contract remain with the OC, which is why the DCA cannot take court proceedings.

Even in an equitaqable assignement the account must be terminated before the collection of sums not normally due under the contract,(accelerated payments).

Bernie

[miliitant]

Re: message for bluebottle

Almost All Assignments Are Equitable To A Dca

Rarely Absolute

Sorry About Caps

Bad Eyesight
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
That Is Why A Dca Has To Go Back To The Original Creditor For Agreements Etc Even In An Equitable Assignment

For A Dca To Respond Say To A S.77 To A S.79 REQUEST Saying You Have To Contact The Oc As The Dca Is Not The Creditor Is Irrelevant. The Person Demanding The Money Will Be Deemed The Creditor As To

Godebt V Critchly

[berniel]

Re: message for bluebottle

Almost All Assignments Are Equitable To A Dca

Rarely Absolute

Sorry About Caps

Bad Eyesight

A lot are, pont is that all accounts must be terminated first in either case.

Very occaisinally a DCA will be used to collect arrears on an active account, but usually the OC will use their own propceedures until the account is defaulted.

Bernie

[pt2537]

Re: message for bluebottle

Bateman and another v Hunt and others [1904] - No time limit for giving NoA
present in statute. Notice does not have to be given by assignee or assignor.