message for bluebottle

[miliitant]

looking at an offence of Forgery under the Forgery & Counterfeiting Act 1988 and, possibly, further offences of Using a False Instrument with Intent to Deceive or Defraud.

hi blubottle

this was a quote from a recent post of yours and i understand you used to be a copper

this question has been asked before but how does the above statement fair with a dca sending a poor notice of assignment preporting to come from the original creditor when it is the dca has made it up

just curious

[bluebottle]

Re: message for bluebottle

looking at an offence of Forgery under the Forgery & Counterfeiting Act 1988 and, possibly, further offences of Using a False Instrument with Intent to Deceive or Defraud.

hi blubottle

this was a quote from a recent post of yours and i understand you used to be a copper

this question has been asked before but how does the above statement fair with a dca sending a poor notice of assignment preporting to come from the original creditor when it is the dca has made it up

just curious

Hi Militant,

Thank you for your question which I'm happy to answer.

A Notice of Assignment is a legal document and, as such, it has to be the original or a Certified Copy of the original. You can tell if it's a Certified Copy because the words "I CONFIRM THIS IS A CERTIFIED COPY" should be written in ink or stamped with endorsing ink and signed with an original signature, in ink, and dated. If it isn't, it's not valid and, in all probability, a forgery.

Part One of the Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1988 deals with Forgery - Part Two deals with Counterfeiting - and it is appropriate to use it in cases where a DCA has clearly fabricated a Notice of Assignment. Section 1 of the Act creates the offence of Forgery, whilst Section 3 creates the offence of Using a False Instrument.

The maximum penalty for both offences is as follows -

Summary Conviction - £20K fine, or six months' imprisonment or both
Conviction on Indictment - 10 years' imprisonment

It is an arrestable offence by virtue of Section 24/24A, Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984.

Hope that answers your question.

Bluebottle

[berniel]

Re: message for bluebottle

looking at an offence of Forgery under the Forgery & Counterfeiting Act 1988 and, possibly, further offences of Using a False Instrument with Intent to Deceive or Defraud.

hi blubottle

this was a quote from a recent post of yours and i understand you used to be a copper

this question has been asked before but how does the above statement fair with a dca sending a poor notice of assignment preporting to come from the original creditor when it is the dca has made it up

just curious

Im not bluebottle but i can tell you that a notice of assignment does not have to come from the creditor.

The assignment itself has to be "under the hand" of the assignor but the note can be sent by either party.

Sorry Bluebottle

Bernie

[miliitant]

Re: message for bluebottle

so why do certain dca go down this road

at the end of the day you have the paper trail in your hand

bang to rights
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
bernei

its a notice of assignment forged by the dca and a dca welcome letter in the same envelope i am

thinking along those lines and also

where does it state in the LOP 1925 that the NOA does not have to come from the original creditor

regards

[bluebottle]

Re: message for bluebottle

Im not bluebottle but i can tell you that a notice of assignment does not have to come from the creditor.

The assignment itself has to be "under the hand" of the assignor but the note can be sent by either party.

Sorry Bluebottle

Bernie

Would you clarify this point, please, Bernie?

In my experience, if the original creditor sends a Notice of Assignment to a DCA, the DCA has the option to forward the original to the debtor or send a Certified Copy, usually a photocopy endorsed as per my post to Militant.

Is this what you're trying to say?

[miliitant]

Re: message for bluebottle

also bernei

what about Section 136 LPA 1925

it staes the assignment needs to come from the original creditor by recorded mail to be vald

This would be by absolute assignment, not equitable (legal) assignment.

[labman]

Re: message for bluebottle

Where do the EU Consumer Credit Directives fit into this?

[berniel]

Re: message for bluebottle

also bernei

what about Section 136 LPA 1925

it staes the assignment needs to come from the original creditor by recorded mail to be vald

This would be by absolute assignment, not equitable (legal) assignment.

136.--(1)

Any absolute assignment by writing under the hand of the assignor (not purporting to be by way of,charge only) of any debt or other legal thing in action, of which express notice in writing has been given to the debtor, trustee or other person from whom the assignor would have been entitled to claim such debt or thing in action, is effectual in law (subject to equities having priority over the right of the assignee) to pass and transfer from the date of such notice

Doesnt say notice by the assignor

Bernie

[bluebottle]

Re: message for bluebottle

Where do the EU Consumer Credit Directives fit into this?

Not sure about EU Directives in that area, Labman, but forging legal documents is a serious matter and, as you can see in my first post in this thread, it carries heavy penalties. If a DCA sent a photocopy of a Notice of Assignment to anyone that was not a Certified Copy, it would be liable to be regarded as a forgery. The Certified Copy endorsement is for the DCA's protection and, quite frankly, if they can't be arsed to do things properly, they shouldn't be surprised if the police kick their office doors off their hinges and drag them kicking and screaming to the lock-up.

[miliitant]

Re: message for bluebottle

The Law of Property Act 1925 is the relevant act that deals with the assignment of debts. Section 136(1) requires that for the assignment of a debt to be effective, express notice in writing must have been given to the debtor:-

Section 196(4) that prescribes the requirements for giving sufficient notice by post:-

196. Regulations respecting notices.
(4) Any notice required or authorised by this Act to be served shall also be sufficiently served, if it is sent by post in a registered letter addressed to the lessee, lessor, mortgagee, mortgagor, or other person to be served, by name, at the aforesaid place of abode or business, office, or counting-house, and if that letter is not returned [by the postal operator (within the meaning of the Postal Services Act 2000) concerned] undelivered; and that service shall be deemed to be made at the time at which the registered letter would in the ordinary course be delivered.

[berniel]

Re: message for bluebottle

Where do the EU Consumer Credit Directives fit into this?

HI labman

The European directve came into force in feb last year. It states that notice of any transfer of ownership of a regulated agreement most be sent to the debtor, but only if there is any change in the way that the agreement operates.
So if you keep opperating the account in the same way, same interest repayments etc then they do not have to send notice undeer the directive.
Interestingly i cant remembeer seing anything that says that this repeals the LOPA so presumably both apply.
Bernie
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------

The Law of Property Act 1925 is the relevant act that deals with the assignment of debts. Section 136(1) requires that for the assignment of a debt to be effective, express notice in writing must have been given to the debtor:-

Section 196(4) that prescribes the requirements for giving sufficient notice by post:-

196. Regulations respecting notices.
(4) Any notice required or authorised by this Act to be served shall also be sufficiently served, if it is sent by post in a registered letter addressed to the lessee, lessor, mortgagee, mortgagor, or other person to be served, by name, at the aforesaid place of abode or business, office, or counting-house, and if that letter is not returned [by the postal operator (within the meaning of the Postal Services Act 2000) concerned] undelivered; and that service shall be deemed to be made at the time at which the registered letter would in the ordinary course be delivered.

Soory Millitant , doesnt say sent by the assignor

Bernie
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------

Not sure about EU Directives in that area, Labman, but forging legal documents is a serious matter and, as you can see in my first post in this thread, it carries heavy penalties. If a DCA sent a photocopy of a Notice of Assignment to anyone that was not a Certified Copy, it would be liable to be regarded as a forgery. The Certified Copy endorsement is for the DCA's protection and, quite frankly, if they can't be arsed to do things properly, they shouldn't be surprised if the police kick their office doors off their hinges and drag them kicking and screaming to the lock-up.

HI Blue bottle

There is no requirement for a copy of the actual notice if you read the act just notification of the assignement.

Bernie

[miliitant]

Re: message for bluebottle

letsa get back onto the original question

what is the legal standing of a dca who sends a letter preporting to be from the original creditor assigning the debt and a dca welcome letter in the same envelpe.
its obvious both have been typed up by the dca in question and why is the assignment is not sent by registerd post to be legally binding.

the assignment is then inafectiive if the assignment is not sent by recorded mail

[bluebottle]

Re: message for bluebottle

Just had a look at Section 136, Law of Property Act 1925.

From what I have read, it gives a creditor the right to assign a debt to another party, provided the creditor gives written notice to the debtor of the assignment. This can be done by the creditor or the assignee (DCA) can forward the original Notice of Assignment or a Certified Copy of same to the debtor. If a copy is forwarded that is not a Certified Copy, it can be regarded as a forgery.

[labman]

Re: message for bluebottle

letsa get back onto the original question

what is the legal standing of a dca who sends a letter preporting to be from the original creditor assigning the debt and a dca welcome letter in the same envelpe.
its obvious both have been typed up by the dca in question and why is the assignment is not sent by registerd post to be legally binding.

the assignment is then inafectiive if the assignment is not sent by recorded mail

The thing is, you can't just say let's get back to the original question. If the EU Directives allow for a debt to be assigned in some circumstances without any notice at all, then go on to say it can come from either the OC or the assignee, it really doesn't matter what paper it's written on, if it even needs to be written at all.

[miliitant]

Re: message for bluebottle

the fact of giving a notice of assignment does not, of itself, create an assignment and that there must be an actual assignment in existence. It is the actual Assignment, not just the Section 136 notice, under which the creditor has just cause. the debtor has a legal right to see the actual assignment.

(Van Lynn Developments v Pelias Construction Co Ltd 1968 [3] All ER 824)

i am talking on ABSOLUTE ASSIGNMENTS