CCJ removal.........possible or not please?

**shamen** · 24th September 2010, 18:16:PM

Re: CCJ removal.........possible or not please?

They can serve to your last known address if they cannot find you. However it would seem very naughty of them to write to you at your new address (im assuming you have a copy of this?) and then proceed to serve a CCJ at your old address. Personally I would imagine that alone is grounds to apply to set aside a judgement - the creditor knew your new address but chose to fool the court to use your old address in order to obtain a default judgement.

something else maybe worth doing - on the letter they sent to the new address what number does it say to call? If its not an 0800/0500 number, then maybe it will show up on an old phone bill? this could further solidify that the creditor knew the new address was correct but chose to ignore it.

**nelliewops** · 24th September 2010, 20:58:PM

Re: CCJ removal.........possible or not please?

Hi Shamen,

Many thanks for your comments and advice! Yes, we have a copy of that letter so hopefully there will be a chance I can do something about this

Regarding your second point - I've had a look to see what phone number is on their letter and it's an 0845 number...............but I've checked our old bills and unfortunately they are not itemised - the bill which covers that period shows 11 calls to 0845 numbers, but they could be to anyone.

I've also dug out OH's SAR stuff and found a note from the telephone log dating to 11th November 2007 (less than 3 weeks before our house sale was completed). It clearly says that OH told them we had sold our house, would be moving at the end of the month and that both our home phone number and his mobile number (a work phone) would be changing.

Unfortunately it doesn't actually show what number they were dialling (other than that our old home number and OH's old mobile number are listed at the top of each phone log page), but it does show that they continued to call OH after we had moved out of our house on 30th November 2007...............right up till April 2008 when it says they discovered our new address.

However, as we are ex-directory I don't believe they could have got hold of our new number and there is nothing on the SAR that indicates they had that info and that they called our new number.

The phone log then goes on to say that the calls continued to be made (to our old numbers?????????) and then on 10th July an 'LC91' was sent to our previous address which on 30th July was returned to them marked 'gone away'.

It then even more curiously says they discovered we had moved house in February 2008 - three months after we had actually moved!

I'm really not sure where all this leaves us - I'm totally confused and it seems as though they were too

Maybe we should write to Northampton and ask for the claim details, then take it from there?

Do you know if there is a fee for requesting this info and if so what it is please?

Many thanks again,

Nellie x

**shamen** · 25th September 2010, 22:50:PM

Re: CCJ removal.........possible or not please?

It seems to me that the creditor had knowledge that you/OH no longer lived there, and that they knew your/OH new address - they had the original notification you/OH were moving. Your downfall could be the fact you/OH did not notify of a new address, or respond to the letter to the new address saying 'confirm you live here. But even so, creditor noted that they knew OH moved, noted address they thought OH was at and sent a letter there. They also noted they had correspondence returned from the old address as 'gone away'. So maybe OH can get out of this one

no promises tho :P

In my response here, im assuming this (meaning the notes on account re new address and letter nto new address) is all recorded on dates before they took court action.

If the SAR contained the claim number of the CCJ, then asking the court for further info seems fruitless. First thing to try is just to call Northampton and ask them to set aside the judgement on the basis OH did not live there when served. Its very possible they will ask for some proof and then do it. This is the quick win and hopefully the easy way out - telling them its all paid up and it was just an address mix up can go a long way with our friends at Bulk.

If that fails, I would think filing a N244 with the court along with the supporting evidence you have already would be enough to ask for the judgement to be set aside. If that can be filed locally or if it has to go to northampton, il defer to someone else, but personally id love to do it locally as you can go sit with a judge and show him/her what you have.

The key to your case is that the balance owed is zero (if im reading correctly) and the original claim and default CCJ was served on an address the Creditor knew you no longer lived at. The court will see you are not trying to 'escape' a debt, that its paid off and that OH had no idea court was even involved. That should weigh very favourably for you.

If the creditor knew you had moved, recorded themselves that they were notified you were moving, and even wrote to you at the new address yet still proceeded to gain a default judgement against your old address, then this should be enough for a N244.

The n244 is (i think) 60 quid to file. In terms of what to put in it, I wouldn't be too detailed - keep each item numbered, a statement of fact and devoid of emotion. Fill in Part A (see below), tick part B to say relying on evidence in part C. In part C, index your evidence (photocopies of the SAR/letters etc) and then attach copies of evidence, clearly corresponding to the index in part C - eg write on the top of each photocopy 'ITEM XYZ' and make sure that matches the index you put in PART C). Play down the phone calls to new number bit, legal things are in writing after all

I'm assuming here your SAR shows no mails to the old address between redirection being set up and it finishing. In part A, outline facts, maybe using what i put below. Number them. Replace 'Creditor' with the name from the original claim.

1. on MOVE DATE, OH moved from PREVIOUS ADDRESS to NEW ADDRESS.

2. Claim CLAIM NUMBER on DATE was made by Creditor against OH at PREVIOUS ADDRES

3. On DATE OH received all Data relating to OH account with Creditor, including account notes from Creditor under a Data Protection Act Subject Access Request. Relevant supporting documentation from Creditor is indexed in Part C.

4. Before claim CLAIM NUMBER on DATE, OH notified Creditor on DATE that OH had moved from PREVIOUS ADDRESS (part C, item Blah)

5. On DATE, Royal mail redirection was set up by OH from PREVIOUS ADDRESS to NEW ADDRESS (Part C, item #X)

6. After moving to NEW ADDRESS, OH asserts that no postal mail from Creditor was received by OH. *edit if this & below not correct (eg, the SAR shows letters to old address during this period, or OH did get mail)

7. The DPA SAR received by OH from Creditor indicates that no mail was sent by Creditor to OH at PREVIOUS ADDRESS or NEW ADDRESS during the period X to Y (Part C, Items X,Y,Z,W and any other bit you want to highlight) *delete if not correct

8. Mail sent by Creditor to PREVIOUS ADDRESS after Royal Mail redirection ended on DATE, but before claim CLAIM NUMBER on DATE was submitted to the court, was returned to Creditor as "gone away." (Part C, Item BLAH, section BLAH)

9. Creditor has acknowledged OH has "gone away" from PREVIOUS ADDRESS in OH account records DATED (Part C, item #Z)

10. Before filing of claim CLAIM NUMBER, dated DATE, against OH at PREVIOUS ADDRESS, creditor knew OH resided at NEW ADDRESS. Creditor has noted this in their notes of OH account on DATE (Part C, item #W) *this is the Feb note

11. Before filing of claim CLAIM NUMBER, dated DATE, against OH at PREVIOUS ADDRESS Creditor sent correspondence to OH at NEW ADDRESS on DATE.

12. By this action, Creditor both engaged in correspondence with OH at NEW address and acknowledged that OH was living at NEW ADDRESS. (Part C, Item #V) *this is the letter they sent to NEW ADDRESS

13. By DATE OH credit report with Equifax/Experian/Callcredit (*delete as necessary) had the new address of OH recorded (See Part C, item #U) *include this if you have access to your credit report and you know OH new address was on it - utility bill, mobile phone, whatever

14. OH credit report with Equifax/Experian/CallCredit (*delete as necessary) was searched by Creditor on 'X/Y/Z', which in light of the above noted the OH resided at CURRENT ADDRESS.

15. Knowing that OH resided at NEW ADDRESS, Creditor proceeded to launch county court claim against OH at PREVIOUS ADDRESS.

16. Without being aware of any court action or judgement, in good faith, OH settled the full outstanding balance with Creditor on DATE (see Part C, Item #T)

17. Creditor made OH aware of default judgement on JUDGEMENT DATE via letter of DATE, indicating receipt of balance and noting settlement of account *modify as appropriate

18. OH feels court process has been both abused and applied unfairly by Creditor submitting claim against OH at PREVIOUS ADDRESS when creditor was fully aware of OH residing at CURRENT ADDRESS.

19. OH will be severely impaired financially for many years by the actions of Creditor.

20. OH asserts that the Judgement of claim CLAIM NUMBER obtained in default on DATE against OH by Creditor is both unfair and an abuse of court process

21. OH respectfully requests the court to set aside the Judgement of claim CLAIM NUMBER of DATE in light of these facts.

bit long-winded, but that's something along the lines of what I would put, assuming the phone call to Northampton doesn't sort it out post haste. Im not a solicitor and I strongly suggest you seek legal advice in this case. Id also hope a few of the other beagles would chime in and correct any bits of my advice they feel could be detrimental to your case or could be improved upon to support it.

Best of luck!

**nelliewops** · 26th September 2010, 12:27:PM

Re: CCJ removal.........possible or not please?

Hi Shamen,

Thank you so much for your very comprehensive, detailed and helpful response - your assistance with this is hugely appreciated

I am going to have to go through all you have said with OH and inwardly digest your suggestions prior to taking any action. If I (or OH) have any queries - which I'm sure we will - I will come back with those if that is ok?

If anyone else can add any additional comments, I would be most grateful!

Thanks again,

Nellie x

**shamen** · 26th September 2010, 12:45:PM

Re: CCJ removal.........possible or not please?

You are welcome. Yep fire any questions back as need be. What I wrote was just a guideline of something I would put to the court if I were in your shoes. I suppose technically OH should have confirmed his new address with them, however their notes and mail support that they knew OH did not reside at the previous address when launching court action

**nelliewops** · 29th September 2010, 17:45:PM

Re: CCJ removal.........possible or not please?

Thanks Shamen!

Well, today OH called Northampton and the plot thickens..............

According to Northampton, the claim was transferred to our local county court - but the date they quoted as this happening was 14th October 2008, yet according to the paperwork OH has the judgment was obtained at Northampton on 29th September 2008.....................

It was too late by then to call the local court, but this will be our next move.

However, this raises two questions -

1) Why is there a discrepancy in the dates for judgment and transferring to our local court?

2) Why would it have been transferred to our local court if the original court papers were issued to our previous address (some 160 miles away)?

I'm also going to check back through all OH's SAR stuff again for further clues/evidence etc!

Nellie x

**pompeyfaith** · 29th September 2010, 17:51:PM

Re: CCJ removal.........possible or not please?

Nellie the judgement you have is it an original and if it is it franked.

PF

**nelliewops** · 29th September 2010, 18:38:PM

Re: CCJ removal.........possible or not please?

Originally posted by pompeyfaith View Post

Nellie the judgement you have is it an original and if it is it franked.

PF

Hi PF,

Thanks for popping over to take a look

Unfortunately we don't have a copy of the judgment - this only came to light when I did a SAR for OH and then put in a charges and a mis-sold PPI claim to M&S Money.

All OH has is a letter received earlier this year which says the following -

'DG Solicitors obtained Judgment by Forthwith on 29th September 2008, claim number ******* in the Northampton County Court, this claim was not returned to the court, so service was deemed as being served.'

We also have a letter received shortly after the above from DG Solicitors stating -

'We confirm payment of this Judgment debt on 10th November 2008.

The Judgment has been registered in the Register of County Court Judgments. This entry in the Register can now be marked as satisfied.

You will need to forward this letter together with a fee, which is currently £15.00 to Northampton County Court................'

When OH paid this debt - in full - he and I were completely unaware that there had been any legal proceedings against him - let alone a CCJ.

We knew as early as March 2008 that I would be receiving some money from a relative's estate and the intention was always to utilise this to clear some debts. The estate depended on the sale of a property which completed on 27th October 2008 - shortly after which the money was transferred to my account and we sent a building society cheque to settle this account balance.

If we had known in say July or August 2008 (when the property sold) that there were impending court proceedings we would have alerted M&S Money to the fact that once this money was received they were top of our list to be repaid.

What is puzzling me now is why the transfer to our local court appears not to have taken place till after M&S say judgment was obtained :tinysmile_hmm_t2:

Nellie x

**shamen** · 30th September 2010, 09:15:AM

Re: CCJ removal.........possible or not please?

This seems puzzling. So am I right in the following

- Northampton say they did not make any judgement against OH
- Northampton say case was transferfed to court local to NEW ADDRESS in October 08
- Claimant say judgement in default was september 08 by northampton against OLD ADDRESS

Somethings just not ringing right here. How could northampton transfer it to the court near your new address when the claim was against old address? If they did they someone knew the new address and it was made known in court, surely? I suggest writing to northampton, asking for clarification in writing - eg, the case number and which court it went to and what address details they were given to contact OH

**nelliewops** · 30th September 2010, 12:54:PM

Re: CCJ removal.........possible or not please?

Hi Shamen,

Yes, I believe that's what they were saying although there was initially some confusion over the claim number (OH had referred to the number quoted on the M&S Money letter which Northampton CC said they didn't recognise. Whilst he was on the phone I found the second letter - from DG Sols - where the number was different by one digit. When OH gave this number to Northampton it was correct). Whether this in turn caused further confusion and OH misunderstood the point they were making, I'm not sure.

However, OH clearly said that Northampton informed him it had been transferred to our local court on 14th October 2008 - he wrote down the date whilst still on the phone - yet the paperwork from M&S says Judgment was obtained on 29th September 2008 at Northampton............so basically it's as clear as mud

In response to your 3rd question (Claimant say judgment by default was september 08 against old address) - there is nothing in either letter that actually confirms it was against our old address and I'm about to search the SAR for further clues to this aspect as I'm now starting to have doubts..............

You are definitely right in saying that the best way to resolve this confusion is to write to Northampton and ask for clarification. I will put a letter together for OH to sign and get it sent off tomorrow!

Thanks again - you're a star for continuing to guide me on this!

Nellie x

**Amethyst** · 30th September 2010, 12:55:PM

Re: CCJ removal.........possible or not please?

long shot, but have you checked there wasnt an application for a charging order ? ie this may be why it was transferred after the judgment - because they applied for a CO to secure the judgment.

Also if it was transferred to your local court, i'd check with them as they would have the files.

**nelliewops** · 30th September 2010, 13:20:PM

Re: CCJ removal.........possible or not please?

Originally posted by Amethyst View Post

long shot, but have you checked there wasnt an application for a charging order ? ie this may be why it was transferred after the judgment - because they applied for a CO to secure the judgment.

Also if it was transferred to your local court, i'd check with them as they would have the files.

Hi Ame,

Thanks for your input - it's very much appreciated, although slightly disturbing as I hadn't thought of that

I know nothing about charging orders, so you'll have to forgive me if I ask some basic, stupid questions -

If there had been an application for a CO from our local county court, would we not have received something in the post regarding this?

If this did happen, where would it leave us now regarding the fact that -

a) Judgment was apparently obtained on 29th September 2008

b) Northampton say it was transferred to our local county court on 14th October 2008

c) Unaware of any of this, we repaid the outstanding debt in full on 5th November 2008 - M&S say payment (a building society cheque) cleared on 10th November 2008

Would the charging order have been obtained?

Would it still stand?

Can it be removed?

If this did happen I don't understand why absolutely no paperwork was ever received regarding it................

Many thanks for your kind assistance,

Nellie x

**Amethyst** · 30th September 2010, 14:00:PM

Re: CCJ removal.........possible or not please?

Don;t worry too much, I just was thinking about it earlier on another thread, and they had a judgment, was paying happily and all of a sudden got a letter saying the claim had been transferred to local court and on investigation found it was cause the creditor was after a CO.

The original claim was at your old address wasnt it - when did you move ? Was the creditor notified of the move (ie before the claim was transferred to your now local court) ?

You would have had land registry documents if anything had gone through. I think it would be more likely that they applied to court for a redetermination of the original judgment to ask for permission to apply for a CO, then you paid it in full in the intervening period, so nothing ever happened and they withdrew it.

**nelliewops** · 30th September 2010, 14:33:PM

Re: CCJ removal.........possible or not please?

Hi Ame,

Hopefully you're right - we've certainly received nothing either from the courts or from the Land Registry - but I do appreciate you covering all bases so to speak!

Regarding the claim, here's a timeline of events -

Sold house in October 2007

OH informed M&S by phone that we would be moving out at end of November 2007 (notes in SAR show this conversation) but I don't believe he notified them of our new address at that point

Moved to new property on 30th November 2007

During December 2007 arranged for Royal Mail to redirect mail till 30th June 2008

OH made payment in branch of M&S local to new address in early December 2007 at which point he believes he gave them our new address details (but cannot prove this)

From SAR it appears that after this M&S continued to telephone OH at our old phone number and his old mobile - both no longer in use by us

March 2008 I was told I would receive a small inheritance from late Uncle's estate on sale of his house which we decided to utilise to clear debts including M&S account

April 2008 M&S wrote to OH at new address

April, May and June 2008 statements for M&S account received having been redirected from old address

30th June 2008 end of mail redirection period

August 2008 late Uncle's house sold

October 2008 completion on late Uncle's house sale - money transferred to my account

5th November 2008 sent building society cheque for full balance to M&S

June 2009 sent SAR request to M&S

Following SAR I requested a refund of charges - M&S refused to refund some as they said they referred to a court claim - the first we had heard of it. In SAR it does say OH's account was passed to litigation (14th July) and for legal action on 17th July 2008 - after our mail redirection had ceased.

There is also a reference to a letter (LC91) being sent (10th July 2008) and returned (30th July 2008) from our old address and marked as 'gone away'.

Furthermore I have just discovered that there is a note on 17th July 2008 saying they had checked land registry and discovered our new address - yet they had already communicated to OH here three months previously!

This now makes me wonder why if they knew this, they would have submitted a court claim to our old address............and was the 'LC91' the court claim? Yet it can't be, as it was sent prior to the date they say account was passed to litigation...............

There is nothing in SAR regarding the actual court case and/or charging orders etc.

In fact the last entry on the 'memos' part of the SAR is dated 30th July 2008 - the entry referring to the LC91 being returned to them marked 'gone away' which seems odd.......

Just to clarify OH received NO papers regarding this claim whatsoever either during July or afterwards.

I'm so sorry for all the rambling Ame, but this seems such a mess I despair of getting it sorted...........

It seems every time I look further into the SAR I discover another twist to the tale

Nellie x

CCJ removal.........possible or not please?

CCJ removal.........possible or not please?

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