Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

**abeysomone** · 30th October 2010, 22:20:PM

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

hi
thank for giving me information.
==========================

**middenmess** · 31st October 2010, 02:01:AM

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Originally posted by jumper999 View Post

I am trying to get as much as help as possible from as many places as possible with a court claim I received today from HSBC.

Details are similar to many of us who are in debt. I got in to debt and offered several times to come to an arrangement to pay HSBC in installments. All offers were refused.

Then in April 09 HSBC issued a DN, before the DN expired I wrote again making an offer to pay. HSBC refused again. Then a few weeks later they sent me a Final Demand letter requesting I pay the full balance within 14 days.

I tried my best to negotiate but no help at all from HSBC, sent 3 Financial Statements out lining my situation etc etc. I continued to received letters from DG Sols, MCSL, and a few other DCA's that HSBC had contacted.

I then placed a complaint with the FOS and they said my cca was enforceable and they did not say much else and that they had contacted HSBC and they were ready to accept £1 a month.........stupid wallys I was offering more than that and if they has accepted my first offer I would not be here tying out all this crap [pardon my language].

Anyway after all that palaver I found out that the DN I received from HSBC was faulty and I wrote to HSBC and accepted their unlawful rescission of my contract. Since receiving the DN I did not make any payments to HSBC.

I received a few letters from DG Sols who have requested I pay or they would apply to place a charge on my property, then today I received a claim form from them. I believe that the agreement that I have is a reconstructed one.

So there is my story, and now I need to get my defence ready. Not too sure if I could use the Woodchester argument and will need some help and advice, and I will have a good read of this too.

I know the Brandon case is up for appeal on the 6 Dec 10 and do not know what will happen there but believe that maybe HSBC are confident that they will win that is why they have been brave enough to issue me with this claim.

Any help will be appreciated, thanks to all in advance

Copy of my credit card agreement:

http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/q...t/HSBCCCA1.jpg
http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/q...t/HSBCCCA2.jpg
http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/q...t/HSBCCCA3.jpg

copy of the DN which does not give enough days to remedy......but don't know how far this argument will go............

http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/q...ds/HSBCDN1.jpg

Just say I can't get away with using the not enough days to remedy the breach............but it says on the DN that I have breached the payment clause on the agreement......unless I have overloaded my brain with info can anyone see where on my agreement it says this please and what term I have breached?

When was the agreement taken out.

You say d/n sent in April 2009 but d/n posted up is dated May 2009.

Have HSBC acknowledged the decision of the FOS that the agreement is unenforceable.

Can you post up the letter from the FOS

[I think that I would have been happy to pay £1 per month and avoided all the aggro]

Did you inform DG that the FOS said the account was unenforceable.

Have you all of your statements for the account and if so what was the rate of interest charged on the first few statements for purchases.

Who now owns the debt.

Can you post up the POC that you have now received

it says on the DN that I have breached the payment clause on the agreement......unless I have overloaded my brain with info can anyone see where on my agreement it says this please and what term I have breached?

Read more at: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN - Legal Beagles Consumer Forum

Under 'Repayments' on page 1?

**jumper999** · 31st October 2010, 09:35:AM

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Hi mm and thanks for the reply.

Agreement was taken out in Jan 06. Sorry DN is May, have edited to show this.

FOS said that agreement is enforceable not unenforceable, it's late I know eyes can get tired. I have attached my response from the FOS, you may say that it was a good idea that I accepted it but I believe the way that I been treated by HSBC was very wrong.

I have been a customer of theirs for a very long time, and informed them that my situation but they never came to any kind of arrangement with me. At that time the reason I did not accept HSBC and the FOS's offer was that I did not receive my Data Request despite many requests and did not want to sign and agree to a figure that I was not sure how much was true.........as I knew a lot of charges had been added to my account. That is the one of the reasons why my account went over the credit limit.

Had HSBC accepted my offer because I was under my credit limit then I never would have been in this mess.

In my Data Request from HSBC looking at my statements......dated Feb 06 no interest rate is shown on this statement. No sum is shown as my credit limit either.

On March 06 statement estimated interest on next statement reads 5.18. The interest rate given on my cca agreement is 13.9%

Interest rate starts showing on statements from May 07 onwards:

May 07-Oct 07 interest rate is 14.9%

Nov 07- Mar 08 interest rate is 16.9%

Apr 08- Feb 09 interest rate is 19.9%

Marc 09- Sep 09 interest rate is 21.9%

Oct 09- Dec 09 interest rate is 18.9%

HSBC referred my account to MCSL on 11 Sep 09 and then referred my account to DG sols on 20 Nov 09.

I have attached the response from FOS below.

Thanks

**jumper999** · 31st October 2010, 09:44:AM

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

I know a court will want to see what both sides of the stories are and I have been reading the Brandon case and see that even though he was issued with a faulty DN and his account terminated the court still did not side with him..........therefore there is to be an appeal on 6 Dec 10.

My case is kinda similar but will put in a defence all the same what ever the result is.

**Guest** · 31st October 2010, 09:48:AM

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Originally posted by jumper999 View Post

I am trying to get as much as help as possible from as many places as possible with a court claim I received today from HSBC.

Details are similar to many of us who are in debt. I got in to debt and offered several times to come to an arrangement to pay HSBC in installments. All offers were refused.

Then in May 09 HSBC issued a DN, before the DN expired I wrote again making an offer to pay. HSBC refused again. Then a few weeks later they sent me a Final Demand letter requesting I pay the full balance within 14 days.

I tried my best to negotiate but no help at all from HSBC, sent 3 Financial Statements out lining my situation etc etc. I continued to received letters from DG Sols, MCSL, and a few other DCA's that HSBC had contacted.

I then placed a complaint with the FOS and they said my cca was enforceable and they did not say much else and that they had contacted HSBC and they were ready to accept £1 a month.........stupid wallys I was offering more than that and if they has accepted my first offer I would not be here tying out all this crap [pardon my language].

Anyway after all that palaver I found out that the DN I received from HSBC was faulty and I wrote to HSBC and accepted their unlawful rescission of my contract. Since receiving the DN I did not make any payments to HSBC.

I received a few letters from DG Sols who have requested I pay or they would apply to place a charge on my property, then today I received a claim form from them. I believe that the agreement that I have is a reconstructed one.

So there is my story, and now I need to get my defence ready. Not too sure if I could use the Woodchester argument and will need some help and advice, and I will have a good read of this too.

I know the Brandon case is up for appeal on the 6 Dec 10 and do not know what will happen there but believe that maybe HSBC are confident that they will win that is why they have been brave enough to issue me with this claim.

Any help will be appreciated, thanks to all in advance

Copy of my credit card agreement:

http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/q...t/HSBCCCA1.jpg
http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/q...t/HSBCCCA2.jpg
http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/q...t/HSBCCCA3.jpg

copy of the DN which does not give enough days to remedy......but don't know how far this argument will go............

http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/q...ds/HSBCDN1.jpg

Just say I can't get away with using the not enough days to remedy the breach............but it says on the DN that I have breached the payment clause on the agreement......unless I have overloaded my brain with info can anyone see where on my agreement it says this please and what term I have breached?

Hi
I think the repayment clause they refer to is the prescribed term relating to your repayment interval and amounts.
The Woodchester argument is not applicable in your case I am afraid, unless you have the money to pay the sum requested.
If the court found the DN defective then you would still have to pay the arrears on the account which I presume is the same as the amount on the default notice.
Then of course you would be in the same position as pre default and have to continue paying you instalments as per your contract.
If you did not repay then they would just issue another default notice.
Really the best thing that you could do is to try to get back to the situation where you where allowed to pay £1 a week.
I suggest a letter to the creditor saying you where wrongly advised and that you wish to recommence the arrangement copy it to the FOS and include a good will payment of whatever you can
Please forgive my frankness, but as you may have gathered I do not believe telling people just what they want to hear , as it is not always if ever in their best interest.

Best Regards
Peter

**jumper999** · 31st October 2010, 10:15:AM

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Thanks peter for your response and I have thought about what you have said but then again I believe that I have been treated very badly by HSBC.

It is not a matter of payment now as it is a matter of principal.........fair enough if I do lose then I will most likely get a CCJ against me and the court will only make me pay what I can afford.

The point is that I tried my hardest to come to arrangement with HSBC prior to them issuing a DN and I also informed them prior to when I was expecting to get in to financial difficulties. I offered to make a payment of more than £1 and they repeatedly refused.

Then when I complained to the FOS they agreed............putting me through the most unnecessary difficulty ever imaginable. I was always a good customer and they only had to look at my history to prove this. Never paid late or under what was expected.

I requested several times if they could at least freeze charges & interest just for a few months but did they listen no........so why should I ask them to accept an offer of £1 now when it was them who are the ones who are mostly responsible for this mess I'm in.

They did not accept the offer when I made it and they agreed when the FOS asked them. Double standards if you ask me. If for nothing else and knowing and accepting the fact that I may lose I still want to put my case forward to show how people are treated when they get in difficulty and how they are treated by their lender.

It is a matter of principal for me now, not a matter of winning or losing. I am open to any kind of views from anyone and do not mind what you have said. End of the day we all have to decide what is the best course of action for us, agree?

I don't think I will say that I was wrongly advised because the advice that was given to them they will never accept they gave wrong advice and I do not think that I should make any apology for something that I did not say or do.

Sorry if I come across snappy but that is how I feel.

BTW: If as you say my DN is found defective and I am made to pay just the arrears then I have a lot of charges on my account and do not truly know how much they are approx £4-500 so HSBC would need to refund me as the arrears at the time of Default were only a few hundred.

**Guest** · 31st October 2010, 12:16:PM

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Hi
The facts are that the creditor is entitled to reclaim his money, yes I totally agree they acted unreasonably, but you must not take this personally. I assure you they will not. As far as they are concerned you are just an account number, they accepting the £1 a month deal because thy had to. By breaching this ,most equitable arrangement have played right into there hands. They can now take you to court without risking the ire of the FOS.
OK so this is the situation you are in we must accept it and work from here.
First you must forget about” getting your own back on the creditor” they really do not care they will just do whatever they can to get there money back.
Since they have commenced enforcement your only option is damage limitation.
You will receive a CCJ there is no doubt.
I would make it clear to all parties when you accept the judgment that the FOS and the creditor have all agreed that £1 a month is all you can afford and that you earnestly wish to repay what you owe, as can be demonstrated by your previous contact with the creditors.
If the court thinks you are trying to get out of this by the methods proposed they will undoubtedly come down on you like a ton of bricks.
I wish I could tell you otherwise
Peter

**jumper999** · 31st October 2010, 13:50:PM

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Thank you for your opinion and comments peter, I will take them in and I am not in this to get back at HSBC far from it.

I still have time to decide what is the best way forward and will think about this more.

So what you are saying is that there is no case law that I can refer to and that I will definately lose and get a CCJ gainst me? Because if you are saying that I will for certain then there is no hope of me fighting this? Regardless of what mine or anyone's opinions maybe?

I know this matter has been debated so much and is getting quite dry now that one does not know what to do.

Do you think my case is similar to Brandon's case?

Also what about the charges that HSBC applied to my account, according to them they informed the FOS that they would return all the charges in 2009?

As Brandon's lender was entitled to apply the £25 charge as a Default fee and HSBC have applied many £12 charges?

And I will if I lose pay £1 a month regardless of wether HSBC and the FOS said I could or not, and my I & E will prove this, so that is not a plus point for me it is a fact. It comes down to whether I can accept of having a CCJ entered against my name and how important that is.

I assume that if I lose and get a CCJ the next thing HSBC will want to do is place a charge on my house, which they have threatened me with.........but that is one down fall to being a homeowner isn't it? Soon as things get too hot for lenders out come the threats of charging orders and repossessions.

F ing joke the lot of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

**Angry Cat** · 31st October 2010, 14:34:PM

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Originally posted by peterbard View Post

Hi
The facts are that the creditor is entitled to reclaim his money, yes I totally agree they acted unreasonably, but you must not take this personally. I assure you they will not. As far as they are concerned you are just an account number, they accepting the £1 a month deal because thy had to. By breaching this ,most equitable arrangement have played right into there hands. They can now take you to court without risking the ire of the FOS.
OK so this is the situation you are in we must accept it and work from here.
First you must forget about” getting your own back on the creditor” they really do not care they will just do whatever they can to get there money back.
Since they have commenced enforcement your only option is damage limitation.
You will receive a CCJ there is no doubt.
I would make it clear to all parties when you accept the judgment that the FOS and the creditor have all agreed that £1 a month is all you can afford and that you earnestly wish to repay what you owe, as can be demonstrated by your previous contact with the creditors.
If the court thinks you are trying to get out of this by the methods proposed they will undoubtedly come down on you like a ton of bricks.
I wish I could tell you otherwise
Peter

Agree.

**jumper999** · 31st October 2010, 14:47:PM

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Thanks AC will wait a while all the same.

**middenmess** · 31st October 2010, 15:06:PM

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Hi Jumper

Apologies for mis-reading 'enforceable' as 'unenforceable'--What a muppet! [I have an [overdue!] appointment for an eye test and new glasses this week so perhaps I'll not make that silly mistake again!]

For the first time, I think, I have 'thanked Peter Bard' for his 2 replies as they are spot on in all respects IMO and Angry Cat also agrees with his reasoning.

The reason I asked about the interest rate was because the 'agreement' you posted up showed that transfers and purchases would attract no interest for the first nine months --if I've read it correctly-- so I was clutching at straws just in case they had charged you interest in this period which might mean that the 'agreement' they reconstructed might not have applied to your account.

**Angry Cat** · 31st October 2010, 15:12:PM

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

I do not always agree with peter, jumper999.

My post would have been different if the agreement had been terminated on the back of the ineffective DN and;
the agreement in question had been deemed unenforceable.

I do however, feel that you have grounds for making a complaint to the ICO.

**Guest** · 31st October 2010, 15:13:PM

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Originally posted by jumper999 View Post

Thank you for your opinion and comments peter, I will take them in and I am not in this to get back at HSBC far from it.

I still have time to decide what is the best way forward and will think about this more.

So what you are saying is that there is no case law that I can refer to and that I will definately lose and get a CCJ gainst me? Because if you are saying that I will for certain then there is no hope of me fighting this? Regardless of what mine or anyone's opinions maybe?

I know this matter has been debated so much and is getting quite dry now that one does not know what to do.

Do you think my case is similar to Brandon's case?

Also what about the charges that HSBC applied to my account, according to them they informed the FOS that they would return all the charges in 2009?

As Brandon's lender was entitled to apply the £25 charge as a Default fee and HSBC have applied many £12 charges?

And I will if I lose pay £1 a month regardless of wether HSBC and the FOS said I could or not, and my I & E will prove this, so that is not a plus point for me it is a fact. It comes down to whether I can accept of having a CCJ entered against my name and how important that is.

I assume that if I lose and get a CCJ the next thing HSBC will want to do is place a charge on my house, which they have threatened me with.........but that is one down fall to being a homeowner isn't it? Soon as things get too hot for lenders out come the threats of charging orders and repossessions.

F ing joke the lot of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HI
I assure you nobody thinks this the slightest bit funny,
To answer your question, no there isn’t any case law to support the “acceptance of the termination” argument on a CCA.
If you go to CAG you will find many who have tried it, and the court has without exception ignored the claim.
Obviously it is your call, but I urge you to consider he possibilities of extra costs and what could happen if you get a judge who has downer on people he considers as trying to evade their responsibilities.
I shall sat no more.
I wish you the very best of luck in whatever you decide to do
Regards
Peter

**Angry Cat** · 31st October 2010, 15:15:PM

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Originally posted by middenmess View Post

Hi Jumper

The reason I asked about the interest rate was because the 'agreement' you posted up showed that transfers and purchases would attract no interest for the first nine months --if I've read it correctly-- so I was clutching at straws just in case they had charged you interest in this period which might mean that the 'agreement' they reconstructed might not have applied to your account.

Well spotted, middenmiss!

Will look again.

Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

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