Is it safe to contest the CCA?

[cymruambyth]

This has been posted on a thread on CAG, what do Legal Beagles think?

'The problem is that all this has all moved on quite a bit over the last few months (particularly since the Rankine fiasco), and advice now has to be different from what we were advising a few months ago. Courts are just not awarding cases to consumers merely because of technical breaches of the CCA 1974. You have to have more than that: you have to have a good argument why what the lender did was unfair, for example, selling you a load of useless PPI, or wrong, like sending you a credit card you never asked for.'

[Curlyben]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

Yes for sure.
CCA has never been a panacea for debt avoidance, so the debtor needs to demonstrate the facts in any cases rather than simply the black and white of the Act. Full colour rules every time.

[middenmess]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

What guidelines can be used to differentiate an actual breach of the CCA 1974 with a 'technical breach of the CCA 1974' ?

As the whole concept behind the CCA 1974 was protection of the consumer why should we now not be able to rely on what is written within that law?

Judges have a certain latitude in interpreting the law but at present some are rewriting the law it would seem to fit in with their own beliefs about debt and debtors.

If this scenario was repeated in France for example, there would be mass protests throughout that country but here we appear to be meekly being led to slaughter.

[cymruambyth]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

I agree the line between actual and technical is very fuzzy.

If a company cannot prove that a CCA was issued complete with t&cs etc surely this is an actual breach.
If A DN does not give sufficient days, is not in the prescribed form and is inflated by charges then is this a mere technicality or????
Without sounding as though I subscribe to conspiracy theories ........ it would seem that in some quarters everything is being done to stop further financial problems by making actual breaches 'merely' technical breaches.

[Curlyben]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

To my mind everything is a technical breach EXCEPT missing prescribed terms, so a clear aim for an s127(3) pre 2007 ONLY.
After that then you must add colour and depth to your arguments, after all certain CMC's have been taking action on failure under s78, see Carey..

[cymruambyth]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

I only do pre 2007.
I am also preparing for court battle and feel a'trifle apprehensive'

[Angry Cat]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

I only do pre 2007.
I am also preparing for court battle and feel a'trifle apprehensive'

Pre 2006, is better.
But do not forget about the: 'Unfair Relationships Test', cymruambyth.

[middenmess]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

Yes for sure.
CCA has never been a panacea for debt avoidance, so the debtor needs to demonstrate the facts in any cases rather than simply the black and white of the Act. Full colour rules every time.

Agree completely.

A well prepared and well presented case with relevant case law that is well argued by a knowledgable LIP will give the Judge little if any room to manouver in his interpretation and understanding but it must be accepted that will often be beyond the capabilities of many LIP's.

Many can prepare their case especially with help and guidance from this forum but presenting and arguing a case in an alien enviroment is a particular skill that not many can master.

The Judge,who's knowledge of the CCA 1974 might often be just basic ,has to decide if the professional barrister or other legal representative with many years training and experience who has been retained by a such a bastion of society as a Bank really is arguing total rollocks in regard to the law in trying to persuade him/her that the Bank would never make such elementary errors when entering into credit agreements or in producing a compliant default notice,or if the defendant, who has probably never appeared in a court room before in their life and has just made a complete hash of presenting their case and is shaking like a jelly,knows more about the law and its implementation than a barrister.

Where would the smart money be placed every time?

[cymruambyth]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

Pre 2006, is better.
But do not forget about the: 'Unfair Relationships Test', cymruambyth.

It's late AC and I know that I am being a bit slow, but could you please elaborate?

Actually I'm pre 2002!

[Tools]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

Why is pre 2006 better than pre 2007 Angry Cat?

[pt2537]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

ok the word protection has been looked upon by the Courts and Gov agencies to mean Information

Information in the sense that you are given the information to make an informed choice. Certainly in respect of the CCA.

The trouble is that there is a one size fits all mentality that seems to have developed on all forums, where people simplyu look for these "prescribed terms" and if they are there, well we all give up

How WRONG IS THAT?

PTS need to be there yes, BUT, there is a more important second test to apply, ARE THEY ACCURATE

We know that inaccurate PT's kill the agreement, but how many actually look at the agreement the lender relies on and test it to see if the actual rate of interest applied on the statement is that which is on the original agreement????????

It is this point that won us the case in Delfi101s case over the road

[middenmess]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

We know that inaccurate PT's kill the agreement, but how many actually look at the agreement the lender relies on and test it to see if the actual rate of interest applied on the statement is that which is on the original agreement????????

It is this point that won us the case in Delfi101s case over the road

The original agreement is something that most of us -or the creditor for that matter--do not appear to have.

I'm assuming that you are referring to checking on the first few statements ever received?

For those of us whose account was opened many years ago have no chance of ever obtaining a copy of our first statements unfortunately--or am I missing the obvious here?

[Amethyst]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

This has been posted on a thread on CAG, what do Legal Beagles think?

'The problem is that all this has all moved on quite a bit over the last few months (particularly since the Rankine fiasco), and advice now has to be different from what we were advising a few months ago. Courts are just not awarding cases to consumers merely because of technical breaches of the CCA 1974. You have to have more than that: you have to have a good argument why what the lender did was unfair, for example, selling you a load of useless PPI, or wrong, like sending you a credit card you never asked for.'

I think people need to use common sense a little more, and followly blindly less.

Some people can afford to be trailblazers (I'm sure I've done this speech before recently hang on.....)

I really think we need to stop thinking that every judgment is a conspiracy or a crap judge - many of these judgments are common sense rather than technical to the letter.

These arent people who have been defrauded or conned into taking credit. Some people DO have claims against them for debts which ARE NOT their debts, the CCA helps protect them, but now that is harder for them. Others have had deposits added back in to amount of credit and interest charged on it, or have extra amounts added in they were not aware of, legitimate problems with debts.

Angles based on slim technical issues are being tried by the various solicitors and CMCs who may or may not have totally altruistic interests in it, on accounts where there is in reality no issue other than the debtor is finding it a burden or difficult to keep up the payments.

As they clarify each argument (and err much more on the common sense than technical side) we need to take note and let the people who can afford to take the risks and who a negative judgment won't have a huge affect on them to take these slim technical arguments forwards.

We are seeing a large number of people who have been handling their debts, making repayment plans and even just paying normally with no issues at all, stop paying and getting a default, then a CCJ and costs against them because of tiny technical issues that they don't understand. We have to stop that, make sure the general public know these are tests and not to stop paying on the too good to be true analysis of interested parties (financial or legal clarity wise).

Keep the helping people seperate from the testing legalities. Once things are tested positively, then help people use the arguments, while its a theory, help people sort their debts based on their actual circumstances, and always make people fully aware of the risks. It all got muddled together and thats why this Egg judgment, and other negative judgments, has had such a big impact on people.

As always just my thoughts.

Still my view lol.

[The Debt Star]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

Someone on CAG has told me that the OC's don't need to send a copy of the CCA at all (reconstructed or otherwise). Only the original t&c. Is this correct? If it is, how can you check the copy statements against the agreed interest rate? Oh, and Barclays are refusing to send me statements older than 6 years so it looks win-win for them. But can this be right?

[middenmess]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

Amethyst

I think people need to use common sense a little more, and followly blindly less.

Amethyst in full Yoda mode
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------

Someone on CAG has told me that the OC's don't need to send a copy of the CCA at all (reconstructed or otherwise). Only the original t&c. Is this correct? If it is, how can you check the copy statements against the agreed interest rate? Oh, and Barclays are refusing to send me statements older than 6 years so it looks win-win for them. But can this be right?

Someone on CAG needs to research more before offering advice.
see curlybens sticky on CCA
~~~ Consumer Credit Agreements - A Guide ~~~~ inc. Letters - Legal Beagles Consumer Forum

Did you SAR them and specifically ask for all data they hold on you or just ask for specific items?