Unenforcable Agreements

[tjdaz]

Re: Unenforcable Agreements

Sec6 on all claims perscribed terms

[tjdaz]

Re: Unenforcable Agreements

I also have another Barclycard agreement where they have not disclosed any information. I am told that 28 day letters of intention to action have to go out as non disclosure is now a mind field.

Can anyone explain why non disclosure is so hard to action against, surely if you do not disclose you would take the card companies to court

[Amethyst]

Re: Unenforcable Agreements

You will need to read http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/docs/jud...rey-v-hsbc.pdf

Carey v HSBC (High Court, Manchester)
This case concerned what sort of copy of a credit card or loan agreement a lender was obliged to provide if asked to do so under provisions of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

Which, in very basic terms, means if they can't find it, they can knock one up that represents the original.

[tjdaz]

Re: Unenforcable Agreements

Is there a difference between S78 and a SAr request?

Many hanks

Amethyst

[Amethyst]

Re: Unenforcable Agreements

Yes a SAR is a subject access request under the data protection act and covers all data the bank/company hold about you. Action would be taken by complaint to the ICO or a part 8 claim in the court under the DPA. Non compliance with the DPA has no reflection of whether your debt is valid / enforceable etc.


A S 78 is a request under the CCA 1974 (as amended) for a true copy of your credit agreement and without this, up till the Carey judgment, non compliance with s 78 meant the debt couldnt be enforced UNTIL they found it, NOW until they can recreate it accurately. So s 78 is not a reason for unenforceability on agreements pre April 07. (post April 07 it wouldnt be anyway it would just mean the court imposes its own terms on the agreement)

Prescribed terms is also covered in Carey - ie the T&Cs dont have to be in the four corners of the signature doc.

The only way now to have an agreement unenforceable is the original numbers in wrong boxes/dont add up/hidden fees & commissions/deposits being added on rather than subtracted / interest not being broken down ie total charge for credit etc arguments.

Which, IMO, is as it should be.

Obviously if you DIDNT ever sign an agreement or receive the benefit of the agreement originally and the agreement never actually existed at all you can still defend debt on that basis as basically its not your debt and thats as it should be too.

It kind of brings back commonsense and the CCA for the purpose it was intended originally, before the 2006 amendments bought it to CMCs attention they could make a stack of money by getting people to avoid legitimate debt by using non compliance with s 78 and asking for a declaration.

[tjdaz]

Re: Unenforcable Agreements

I may sound a bit daft here but what is to stop any credit card company justing copying any t7c's and sayiny they relate to the debt because without a signed copy then how can you prove unenforcability?

[Amethyst]

Re: Unenforcable Agreements

Not daft at all thats a serious concern.

Have a read OFT draft guidance on sections 77,78 and 79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 - Legal Beagles

[tjdaz]

Re: Unenforcable Agreements

Solicitor sent letter to MBNA after yet another threatening letter

"We enclose our letter before action which was sent on the 11th Jan, which you have failed to respond toso that proceedings are now in train of issue.Pursuant to our letter before action, we require you to communicate to us on the matter.
You will be served with the claim by the court. If you are able to agree the order now then obviously costs can be kept at a minimum. In regard we refer you to the case of Bank Of Scotland V Mitchell in May 2009 in Leeds County Court where the bank was made teo pay indemnity costs for failing in effect to recognise the futility of ther case where the defence was based on section 61

[Amethyst]

Re: Unenforcable Agreements

Bank of Scotland v Mitchell case in the Leeds County Court.

for info

erek R Halbert
Designated Civil Judge, Cheshire.
12th March 2009.
Mitchell Vs Bank of Scotland (June 2009)
Below is the transcript of the recent Bank of Scotland v Mitchell case in the Leeds County Court. IN THE LEEDS COUNTY COURT Case No: 9LS70096
The Combined Court Centre
Oxford Row
Leeds
1st June 2009
Before
HIS HONOUR JUDGE LANGAN QC
__________
BANK OF SCOTLAND
(Claimant)
-v-
ROBERT MITCHELL
(Defendant)
__________
APPROVED JUDGMENT
__________
APPEARANCES:
For the Claimant: MISS GARDNER
For the Defendant: MR BERKLEY QC
__________
Transcribed from tape by
J L Harpham Limited
Official Court Reporters and Tape Transcribers
55 Queen Street
Sheffield S1 2DX
BANK OF SCOTLAND -v- ROBERT MITCHELL
1st June 2009
APPROVED JUDGMENT
JUDGE LANGAN:

1. I have to deal with an issue as to costs which has arisen on the informal discontinuance of an action.

2. The action was commenced on 21st May 2008. The claimant bank had, in December 2003, issued a credit card to the defendant, and the claim was for £15,417.23, being the amount said to be due on the defendant's account. Judgment in default, for a total sum of £15,727.23, was obtained on 4th July 2008. The defendant subsequently applied to have the judgment set aside. That application came before District Judge ****** on 29th January this year and was successful. The recitals to the District Judge's order say this: 'And upon the defendant's proceedings on the basis of a breach of Section 61(1)(a) of the Consumer Credit Act, namely that the claimant failed to comply with the requirements to give copies of all the documents relevant to the agreement at the time of signing, and upon the defendant contending that notwithstanding Section 65 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, Section 127(3) of the Act preventing the
enforcement'.

After those recitals it is ordered the court sets judgment aside, and it is ordered that there be, 'A determination of the issue set out above'. Various procedural directions then follow.

3. What has been listed for trial today is, 'The determination of issue', referred to in the order which I have just recited.

4. The agreement made in relation to the defendant's credit card was a regulated agreement within the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Section 61(1)(a) of that Act provides:

'A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless a document in the prescribed form, itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under Section 60(1), is signed in the prescribed manner, both by the debtor or hirer, and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner'.

Having regard to the date of the agreement made in this case, which was prior to amendments made to the Act which took effect from 5th April 2007, the result of non compliance with Section 61(1)(a) would be that the credit card agreement would be unenforceable against the defendant, see Consumer Credit Act 1974 Section 127(3).


5. This morning I was informed by Miss Gardner, counsel for the bank, that the bank was withdrawing its claim against the defendant. This announcement has been accepted by Mr Berkley QC, who appears for the defendant, as equivalent to the service of a notice of discontinuance under the Civil Procedure Rules Part 38.3. By the Civil Procedure Rules Part 38.6.1:

'Unless the court orders otherwise, a claimant who discontinues is liable for the costs which a defendant against whom the claimant discontinues incurred, on or before the date on which notice of discontinuance was served on the defendant'.

Miss Gardner contends that the court should, 'Order otherwise', and make no order for costs as between the parties. Mr Berkley contends that the presumption in CPR 38.1.6 should operate, and further that the order for costs to be made in favour of his client should be an order for assessment on the indemnity basis.

6. The thrust of Miss Gardner's submission is that the issue directed by the District Judge, and on which the evidence has been focused, is whether the bank supplied the defendant at the time of signing the application form for credit with documents which contained all the terms of the agreement between them. I shall elaborate a little further on this. It has been the defendant's case that he was supplied with nothing more than the application form which he signed. It has been the bank's case that in accordance with the usual practice of the bank the defendant would have been, and must have been, supplied with other documents, including a pack which will have contained all the terms and conditions of the agreement made between the parties. Miss Gardner goes on to say that the defendant has at the last moment taken a new and radically different point, namely that the document signed by the defendant did not contain all the prescribed terms of the agreement. I must again elaborate on this. It is common ground that the only document signed by the defendant was the application form. It is also common ground that the application form did not, on its face, set out the prescribed terms of the agreement between the parties. The point which is treated by Miss Gardner as a new point is dealt with in paragraphs 22 and 23 of Mr Berkley's written argument, and it will, I think, be more economical if I simply quote those two paragraphs in full rather than attempt, in my own words, to expand on them:


'The key words in Section 61(1)(a) are the reference to a document itself containing all the prescribed terms, and conforming to the regulations under Section 61. This language is clear and specific, and ensures that mere reference to terms contained in another document will not suffice. The document must contain the prescribed terms, just as the signed document referred to in Section 127(3), which might save the day, must however contain the prescribed terms. The construction contended for by the defendant is entirely consistent with the language of Section 61(1), and is also supported by Professor Good in his encyclopaedic work - see Good & Consumer Credit Law and Practice volume 2, 2B 5.121, and see also the comments at 2B 5.247. There the learned author draws a distinction between the language of paragraph (a) contain and paragraph (b) embody. It is respectfully submitted that the court should adopt the same reasoning in determining this issue in favour of the defendant, irrespective of whether or not it finds that the defendant was supplied with documents other than the credit agreement itself'.

7. In my judgment, the point with which I have just been dealing is not properly to be characterised as a new point on which the bank can present itself as being taken by surprise. I refer to four documents. First, on 3rd November 2008, when the defendant was acting as a litigant in person, in the request to have the default judgment set aside he said this:

'As the court is aware, in the absence of all the prescribed terms being embodied, it will render a document unenforceable in court. These terms must be contained within the agreement, and not in a separate document headed 'Terms and Conditions', or words to that effect'. Secondly, on 18th February 2009, solicitors, who were by then acting for the defendant, sent to the solicitors acting for the bank a copy of what they called an expert report setting out the reasons why the agreement was in breach of Section 61(1)(a), and they went on:

'As you are aware it is our client's position that at the time he entered into the agreement he was not provided with a copy of the terms and conditions governing the agreement'.

If one goes to the so called expert's report, one finds that it is in effect an opinion prepared by another firm of solicitors, and the opinion contains the following:

'Based on the information provided, it appears that the prescribed terms and conditions were not included in the document signed by the borrower. The agreement would appear to be in breach of the regulations in that it does not contain within the signed agreement itself all of the prescribed terms'.

Thirdly, that point having been taken on behalf of the defendant, it was robustly rejected by the solicitors acting for the bank in their reply of 19th March 2009:

'Our client has sought counsel's opinion on this matter and her view is that the agreement is compliant. We note that your client is arguing that at the time of signing the agreement, the application for a credit card, he was not provided with the actual terms and conditions which were contained in a separate document to the application. Whilst our client accepts that the application itself does not comply with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, and only becomes compliant by reference to terms and conditions, there are references in the agreement to the conditions in which it states that they are provided in the Halifax credit card application pack'.

Fourthly, going back in time a little, on 4th March 2009, in the defendant's witness statement made for the purpose of the trial of the issue, at the very beginning of the statement, in paragraph 3, he said this:

'It is my position that the agreement is not enforceable by the claimant as it has failed to comply with its obligations under Section 61 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 by failing to include within the document that I signed all the prescribed terms'.

8. The absence of further reference to the point in the evidence is hardly surprising, since the point is one of law, on which there was no controversy as to the facts.

9. Miss Gardner has given no reason for the withdrawal of the action. She is in no way to be criticised for the omission. She is bound to act in accordance with her instructions, and those instructions were presumably to say no more than she has in fact said. But this does not prevent me from drawing what is in my judgment the only inference which can possibly be drawn from what has happened, which is that the bank realises that if the issue were to be contested it would either lose on the issue or be at serious risk of losing. There may be hundreds of similar cases and the bank would plainly not wish other defaulting customers to get wind of an adverse decision on the fundamental point which is embodied in the quotation from Mr Berkley's written argument, which I have already set out.

10. Accordingly, I conclude, without hesitation, that there is no reason for displacing the presumption as to incidence of costs which is ordinarily applicable in a case of discontinuance. The bank will pay the defendant's costs of the claim, subject only to any existing order for costs in favour of the bank not being disturbed.

11. Finally, I have to consider whether the costs of the defendant should be assessed on the standard or on the indemnity basis. In my judgment the assessment should be on the indemnity basis. The only realistic view of what has happened is that the bank has surrendered on a straightforward point of law, to which it has on several occasions been alerted by the defendant or his solicitors. A large commercial enterprise which proceeds with litigation in the face of warning signs of the kind which were erected here, adopts a high risk strategy. The point in question was a simple one. There was no relevant controversy as to the evidence. To choose to abandon the claim on the very day of the hearing is doing a serious disservice to the efficient administration of justice, and comes very close to constituting an abuse of process. At the very least, the bank's conduct of the litigation falls comfortably within the range of cases in which, on the modern authorities, an assessment of costs on the indemnity basis is appropriate.

[tjdaz]

Re: Unenforcable Agreements

Well lets hope it is futile for the credit card companies but me thinks not will update when i hear more

[zentrix9]

Re: Unenforcable Agreements

Sounds like someone is being given the runaround. Considering you didnt have the time and were a busy man I think doing it all yourself would have taken less time and cost you less. The help you get on this site is better than some so called solicitors who just pass you round and millk you. MOOO!!!!