Capitial One - CCA Request

[fuzzybrain]

I sent a CCA request to Capitial One and some how I don't think it meets the criteria!!! Where do I go from here???

I can't post the up because my scanner and computer is playing silly whatsits, but ii'll email them to Curlyben if that helps???

[fuzzybrain]

Re: Capitial One - CCA Request

The bit that really confused me is this -


You requested copies of the executed credit agreement and a statement of your account under section 78 of the CCA 1974.

Please find enclosed a copy of your credit agreement as requested. In accordance with section 78 of the CCA 1974 and the cinsumer credit (cancellations notices and copy documents) regulations 1983, this uis your orginial agreement, and if any terms have bewen caried then the copy agreement will include the updated terms. In addition, your personal details, the signature box, signature and date of signature have been ommitted from the copy provided as permitted under regulation 3 of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copy Documents) regulatiuons 1983.

__________________________________________________ _____________________

How do i know the CCA they supplied is actually mine as it has no info on it at all - no accpunt number, do dates, no credit limit - nothing

Plus it mentions that the fees for late payments etc are £12. Now when I got this card the rates where much higher than that, so i don't think this is mine inat all and they have tried to fob me off.

Any ideas what i should do please????


s

[Curlyben]

Re: Capitial One - CCA Request

Please find enclosed a copy of your credit agreement as requested. In accordance with section 78 of the CCA 1974 and the cinsumer credit (cancellations notices and copy documents) regulations 1983, this uis your orginial agreement, and if any terms have bewen caried then the copy agreement will include the updated terms. In addition, your personal details, the signature box, signature and date of signature have been ommitted from the copy provided as permitted under regulation 3 of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copy Documents) regulatiuons 1983.

This is their omission that they do NOT have an agreement for you.

Creditors use SI 1983/1557 to hide behind.
What they have sent is completely unenforceable as it doesbit even attempt to identify you in any shape or form.
In fact what we have is simply the agreement that they would of sent, assuming they ever got their act together.

Without your details how on earth can you even think about verifying the agreement, it could be for anyone at all.

What's the date of this account ?

Throw this at them

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE
Dear Sir/Madam
Thank you for your letter of DATE, the contents of which have been noted.
With regards to your recent reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.
I note that you have replied to the above by sending a copy of an unsigned agreement, I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.

To clarify:

On the 29th of December 2006 in response query Ian McCartney MP replied to a letter in his then role as minister for the department of Trade and Industry he stated this, “Mr Bardsley describes a situation in which he was sent a copy of a company’s standard Terms and Conditions when requesting a copy of a signed agreement form. Just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement”

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;
As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.”
This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

And more importantly

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

The regulations state:
(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-
(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;
(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, what is being overlooked is the part highlighted, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1557 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.
I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues.

I understand that under section 3 (b) of SI 1983 /1557 you may omit the signature box from the copy , I would point out that not having the original document it would to be impossible to verify the validity of such a document as an exact copy.
I therefore would suggest that a true copy including my signature be sent. If I am unable to verify the authenticity of the document the terms of 1974 section 77 act have not been met and the timescale for production of the documentation would still apply

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

I await your rapid response.
Yours Faithfully,

Edit as needed.

[fuzzybrain]

Re: Capitial One - CCA Request

What's the date of this account ? - I can' remember when I took the card out, but i think it was around 2004 - it's defiantely more that 3 years old - I think!!

I will get this letter off recorded first class tomorrow to the little angels!!

Will Payplan agree not to pay them whilst i am disputing Cap1 legal ability to enforce debt? I am concerned that they will not help us with the DMP anymore if we start rocking the boat....

[fuzzybrain]

Re: Capitial One - CCA Request

Well Cap 1 have sent me some additional paperwork back - buty I can't make heads nor tails of why they think this meets the requirement. I emailed the repsonse and additional paperwork to CurlyBen - coz I can't figure out how to attach doucments as it keeps saying they are too big!!

CB has suggested that i send them the non compliant lettter, which i had intended to do today, but didn't get time.

However today in the post i received a warning of a default notice and noitce of charges being placed on my account. I had previously written to them and advised them that the account was in dispute because of the non compliant CCA - so:

Can they still add charges and issue a default against me
Is the non compliant letter still the right one to send?
What else should I do, as they have clearly stated on their letter that they are CCA compliant and I should make arrangements to pay the monies owed to them asap????

[Curlyben]

Re: Capitial One - CCA Request

Well considering everything else that's going on a default is the least of your worries, and as for charges well they are clearly urinating in the direction of some inclement weather

Send them the non-com and we'll see what happens next.

[fuzzybrain]

Re: Capitial One - CCA Request

Well as expected i got a letter back saying we meet the criteria, so get stuffed - but more politely put than that!!

Thank you for your letter about your request for us to provide you with a true copy of your credit agreement. I wo0n’t be able to send any different documentation to support your request

As I’ve already explained, in accordance with section 78 of the CCA 1974 and the consumer credit (cancellation notices and copy documents) regs 1983, we’ve provided you with a copy of your original agreement, and if any terms have been varied, then the copy agreement will include updated terms. In addition, we also enclose a copy of the signature page of the credit agreement you signed when you applied for your credit card. The signature page of your credit agreement was on the same page as the application form.

Your account remains over limit. We will continue to pursue the outstanding balance and will defend any application you may wish to bring against us.

I understand you are unhappy with the calls you have been receiving. Our collections department has been calling the number you provided as a contact because you are behind with your payments. We have an obligation to contact you to inform you about the status of your account. Our collections team has been trying to speak to you to see why you have failed to bring your account up to date and to see if we can help in some way

We use an automated telephone system that continues to call you until we’ve reached an agreement or your account is up to date. We do not find this unreasonable to do this and the calls will continue until one of these conditions is met.

Finally, you have asked us to cease processing any data in relation to your account. Capital One informed you when you applied for your credit card and in the terms of your agreement how your data would be processed and you consented to the process of your data by signing your credit card agreement. The processing of your data is necessary to enable capital one to perform its obligation under your credit agreement.

The information commissioner has confirmed that it is appropriate for lenders to share information about customers’ accounts with the credit reference agencies. Also, that it is appropriate for the credit reference agencies to retain this data for six years after the account was last active.

I can confirm that the information we have recorded with the credit reference agencies is an accurate reflection of the way you have managed your account and we will not be asking the credit agency to remove this information.

As mentioned in my previous letter, you now have the option of contacting the Financial Ombudsman. As we have already sent our final response, I need to let you know that we won’t be able to send any different documentation to support your request.

I must inform you that any further contact we receive from you on this subject will be acknowledged but we will not enter into any further correspondence.
__________________________________________________ __________________

I gather my next step if the Finanical Ombudsman? Does anyone have any suugestions how i word my complaint??

Thanks

[Curlyben]

Re: Capitial One - CCA Request

Eh ?!
You what !!!

[fuzzybrain]

Re: Capitial One - CCA Request

That was my thoughts too - it doesn't respond to the letter i sent them in any way!! How do i respond to their letter??

Do I send a complaint to the FO and if so any ideas on how to word it??

[fuzzybrain]

Re: Capitial One - CCA Request

Does anyone have any ideas on how to handle this one? Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Curlyben]

Re: Capitial One - CCA Request

FOS

[fuzzybrain]

Re: Capitial One - CCA Request

This one will be worded differently than the TC one - So I have a "few!!" questions - do I need to mention the following?

I made a CCA and the documentation they sent did not comply and as such the agreement is unforceable (Do I need to say why or can I just state that it did not meet the prescribed terms of an enforceable CCA)

Capital One are insisting that the agreemement is enforceable (should i put the reasons why it isn't enforceable?)and are still demanding payment and processing my data (sharing with with credit reference agencies). Do I ask them to enforce CAP 1 to cease sharing information with CRA and for them to remove all info supplied to the CRA, including any defualt that may have been applied to my CRA

Should I also make note of the fact that the company are also unwilling to enter into any further correspondance with in regards to this matter?


Any further advice???

[Curlyben]

Re: Capitial One - CCA Request

Yes to everything.
They are attempting to hide behind misquoted CCA regs

[fuzzybrain]

Re: Capitial One - CCA Request

So send the above and copies all of all letters (from me and them) to prove the above??

many thanks

[Curlyben]

Re: Capitial One - CCA Request

yep