Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

[Sweeneyblue]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

Right a lot has happen since. I last posted council complaints officer is in agreement with me ,but does not have the powers to force the return of my vehicle.

[enquirer]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

If when the vehicle is stopped by the police and the occupant is told that they 'have' (as in 'may not leave'), to speak to the DCA, I would have thought that amounts to wrongful arrest.

[bizzybob]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

If when the vehicle is stopped by the police and the occupant is told that they 'have' (as in 'may not leave'), to speak to the DCA, I would have thought that amounts to wrongful arrest.

As the debt is civil, that would be my opinion also, the stop was unlawful from the moment the bailiff ANPR went kerching and the bailiff "instructed" the copper to stop the car.

[bluebottle]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

Totally agree with BB and Enquirer. However, Iwould add that the stop was unlawful per se, as was the seizure by the bailiffs. The council officer is talking nonsense. As the creditor, the council has the power to order the return of the OP's vehicle. Also, unlawfully stopping a vehicle and then telling a motorist too stay for a bailiff is unlawful detention. I can see the OP's casr blowing up in the Met's face big-time. I can also ser a major investigation being launched into these roadside operations, certain civil enforcement companies being faced with significant compensation claims,refunds or having to recover vehicles. I can also see baiffs who have taken in these operations losi.g their certificates at the very least. There is no excuse.

[Wombats]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

The Metropolitan Police are well aware they are not acting lawfully. A FOI response (eventually received) stated:

"It has been often quoted that police officers have a duty to assist officers of the court executing these warrants by virtue of Section 85(4), which states “It shall be the duty of every constable within his jurisdiction to assist in the execution of every such warrant”

However this section has been restricted been restricted by virtue of Statutory Instrument 1993/2073 - The Enforcement of Road Traffic Debts Order 1993 (article 6)

This section does not afford police officers with a power to execute the warrant and there is no power for police officers to detain a person in order for CEOs to execute the warrant."

It is unclear whether or not the Met are still carrying out these joint operations since they finally issued their response.


It is now CLEAR that the police are in fact not using their powers under Section 163 of the Road Traffic Act. The specific reason for this being simply that IF they are to rely upon Section 163 then the police must stop the vehicle and such vehicle will be stopped in accordance with information available to the police on the Police National Database.

As was clearly show on the Parking Mad series, the police do not rely upon the information on their database. Instead, they are told which car to stop by a private sector bailiff companies using their own database.

There appears to be no legal basis for doing so.


Of course the 'new' regulations also throw a spanner in the works as they state the vehicle has to remain immobilised where it is for a period of two hours AND the Notice of Enforcement must be served on the debtor at an address where they reside, or, if a business, the business premises.


As regards contacting the production company, there is little point as it has been done by many. Everyone gets this response:


"Thank you for your comments about our series Parking Mad. At the time of filming, we were not aware of any illegality in the bailiffs and police working alongside each other, and I believe this is a matter still under judicial discussion.

We make observational documenataries and are not specialists in investigative or current affairs documentaries............ ..............."


New 'interim' guidance has been issued to the police while all stakeholders are consulted, and as a result of numerous complaints to the IPCC and other bodies, the police are finding themselves in a very uncomfortable position. Watch this space!

[bizzybob]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

The response from the LA to Sweenyblue, might indicate the bailiffs have already sold the vehicle, therefore he considers it beyond his powers to demand the bailiffs do a Jacobs (3rd party VW camper fiasco) and buy it back so the council regard the matter closed. Time to up the ante, and indicate to the council where and why they and their bailiff are culpable along with the Met for the unlawful stop and seizure.

[Sweeneyblue]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

This is the response from complaint made to police.
i have taken out any personal references.
Dear mr ----------------

the outcome of the matter has been agreed with the ----------- professional standards champion who is superintendent with delegated authority for deal with complaints on ------------ borough operational command unit.

i am glad to report that I have done everything you asked me to do in connection with the complaint you made on --/--/2014. I have contacted each of the listed officers and identified that it was PC -------------- who dealt with you direct. PC-------------- has provided me with his account of events. I have decided that PC-------------- acted in good faith on this occasion, and that there is on disciplinary matters in this case. As discussed with you during our conversation on the phone,events following the stop could have been conducted better and I have reminded. PC-------------- of police powers and procedures whilst assisting bailiff, and a point of learning has been addressed.

i sympathise that you are yet to have your vehicle returned to you but unfortunately, the police service are not able to assist you further, as this a civil matter.

our greatest priority is to deliver a quality police service. For london and we are open to constructive feedback from the public. We have now taken the agreed steps to resolve your complaint.
i hope you are satisfied with the steps I have taken.

you have the right in relation to this investigation to the appeals unit of the directorate of professional standards .THERE IS NO RIGHT TO APPEAL TO THE IPCC. You have 28 days within which to make you appeal from the date of this letter. APPEALS RECIEVED AFTER 28 DAYS MAY NOT BE ALLOWED UNLESS THERE EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES.


Well that's it the rest in just thanks ect.

areas in capitals was high lighted.
what do you think?

[bizzybob]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

They say it is a civil matter, then there is the problem they have of the unlawful stop and seizure according to the FOI recently answered by the MET, it may lead them into a minefield of joint and several liability with the bailiffs. whatever they claim, and would be a joint target in any litigation.

[Wombats]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

Hi Bizzybob, how would you suggest they go about furthering the matter if this is the case, as it would appear there is a mix of civil and criminal, plus the issue of vicarious liabilities. You mention litigation, would this be in civil or criminal courts and would the OP get any help, as I imagine the costs would be substantial if the case were lost?

Is there any simpler solution we can think of to avoid costs the OP may not be in a position to afford?

[bluebottle]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

The police officer who wrote the letter needs to don reinforced boxer shorts because I can see them taking a rather painful kicke up their jacksie. An unlawful act has been committed and the Met is deeply implicated. I would be inclined to contact the IPCC about the references to them. The Met, bailiffs and council are well and truly in the crap - and they know it.

[Sweeneyblue]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

Good point
Didn't think there was any help available.
Any help would be great fully accepted.
thanks
people
if we stand together we have the power to overcome the callous nature of people who wish keep us in the dark ages.

[bizzybob]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

Might be worth contacting the National Pro-bono Centre

http://www.nationalprobonocentre.org.uk/

as this has a group interest as in may being disadvantaged unlawfully.

[bluebottle]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

Good solid advice, BB.

Might be worth contacting the National Pro-bono Centre

http://www.nationalprobonocentre.org.uk/

as this has a group interest as in may being disadvantaged unlawfully.

[mo786]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

Bit late to this... but..

It is worth atcually trying to break down what IS happening during these things and what LOOKS LIKE is happening

On first glance, on Parking Mad made it look liek the bailiffs were tellign the Police who to stop - that said, I udnerstand the Police can stop any vehicle to check compliance with road traffic laws.

What happens then is whilst the vehicle is stopped, the baliffs step in and seize the car and the Police may hang around to 'prevent a breach of the peace'. I think the Police could make ana rgument that they have used road traffic powers to stop the vehcile and then they may or may not be assisting a bailiff in carryign out a court order/warrant.

I think once the Polcie have doen their checks the eprson is OK to drive off but clearly they may not be able to. I think the Police would be on dodgy grounds if they tried to chase after someone who drove off unless they had broken some other law 9liek driving off dangerously).

Regarding Data Protection - might section 35 of the DPA 1998 allow transfer of information?

[bluebottle]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

Bit late to this... but..

It is worth atcually trying to break down what IS happening during these things and what LOOKS LIKE is happening

On first glance, on Parking Mad made it look like the bailiffs were telling the Police who to stop - that said, I understand the Police can stop any vehicle to check compliance with road traffic laws.
The bailiffs were indeed telling the police to stop vehicles. This came up on a programme that aired on Pick TV late at night and they were clearly heard telling the police to stop vehicles. The police can only stop vehicles using Section 163, Road Traffic Act 1988 where they have lawful reason to do so. This does not include stopping vehicles to facilitate a certificated bailiff seizing vehicles or extorting money from motorists in contravention of a court warrant for a civil debt. My gut-instinct is that the police have, to some extent, been mislead into believing what the motorists owe are fines, as in court fines.
What happens then is whilst the vehicle is stopped, the bailiffs step in and seize the car and the Police may hang around to 'prevent a breach of the peace'. I think the Police could make an argument that they have used road traffic powers to stop the vehicle and then they may or may not be assisting a bailiff in carrying out a court order/warrant.
Warrants for de-criminalised parking penalties and Liability Orders for CT arrears MUST be executed at the address on the warrant/Liability Order, not at the side of a road miles away from the address on the warrant/Liability Order. Whilst the regulations may state warrants can be executed anywhere in England and Wales, the reality is that this is only so the address on the warrant can be changed by the court if the debtor has changed address since the warrant was issued. If the police stop a vehicle so that a certificated bailiff can seize a car, they are acting unlawfully and so is the bailiff. The police have no power to stop vehicles under such circumstances and the bailiff is acting in contravention of the conditions attached to a warrant/Liability Order. The only time a stop would be lawful is if a motorist had an outstanding magistrates court fine, in which case the police have the power to act. They have no power to act against a person for a civil debt. It is not a criminal offence to be in debt.
I think once the Police have done their checks the person is OK to drive off but clearly they may not be able to. I think the Police would be on dodgy grounds if they tried to chase after someone who drove off unless they had broken some other law like driving off dangerously.
If the stop is unlawful, so is detaining the motorist and trying to stop them after driving off.
Regarding Data Protection - might section 35 of the DPA 1998 allow transfer of information.
No. The transfer of data from bailiff company to police is almost certainly in breach of the Data Protection Act 1998.

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