Ahhhh will I ever learn......?

[bizzybob]

Re: Ahhhh will I ever learn......?

Quote the council the new guidance regarding use of bailiffs at

4.5

1. Local Authorities should remain prepared to deal directly with individuals at any point. It is perfectly within their gift to call action back from the bailiffs at any time and where there is a case to do so they should consider such action.
   
   full document here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/council-tax
   
   

[Bill-K]

Re: Ahhhh will I ever learn......?

Nifty quote, Bob - and that appears to be a UK-wide thing.

So - Monz - it doesn't effectively bind them, if I read it right - but it means that they cannot say that the matter is "Out of our hands," as they so lurve to do. Finding exactly where the buck stops is always a paper-chase, innit - and I reckon this is a good step along the way.

[bizzybob]

Re: Ahhhh will I ever learn......?

Nifty quote, Bob - and that appears to be a UK-wide thing.

So - Monz - it doesn't effectively bind them, if I read it right - but it means that they cannot say that the matter is "Out of our hands," as they so lurve to do. Finding exactly where the buck stops is always a paper-chase, innit - and I reckon this is a good step along the way.

Exactly so Bill-K it reminds the council that they own the debt absolutely, and can recall at any time. It also reiterates the duty incumbent on a council to ensure the bailiffs do not break the law ( as many bailiffs do every day) during enforcement:

1. Power is given to Local Authorities to levy distress. Bailiffs are simply working on the Local Authority’s behalf – it is therefore the Local Authority’s responsibility to ensure bailiffs, whether directly employed or private companies, are working within the law and the Local Authority who can be held accountable if they are not. Bailiffs should make it clear to the debtor whether they, the bailiff, is employed directly by the authority or by a private bailiff firm.
   

Further if there is muppetry and lawbreaking

1. The Government consider that any fraudulent practices should be reported to the police as a criminal offence under the Fraud Act and that Local Authorities should terminate any contract with companies whose activities are proved fraudulent.

So there we are more sticks to hit them with.

[enquirer]

Re: Ahhhh will I ever learn......?

... thing is I don't want to enter into any correspondence with them at all, not deal with them at all.

How else will you be able to gently lead them into the trap?

[Bill-K]

Re: Ahhhh will I ever learn......?

Exactly so Bill-K it reminds the council that they own the debt absolutely, and can recall at any time. It also reiterates the duty incumbent on a council to ensure the bailiffs do not break the law ( as many bailiffs do every day) during enforcement:

1. Power is given to Local Authorities to levy distress. Bailiffs are simply working on the Local Authority’s behalf – it is therefore the Local Authority’s responsibility to ensure bailiffs, whether directly employed or private companies, are working within the law and the Local Authority who can be held accountable if they are not. Bailiffs should make it clear to the debtor whether they, the bailiff, is employed directly by the authority or by a private bailiff firm.

I daresay our own bailiff guys here will be two steps ahead of me, but this seems like the old 'dog-collar' of 'Vicarious Liability' is perhaps finally being attached to these bitches.

Further if there is muppetry and lawbreaking

1. The Government consider that any fraudulent practices should be reported to the police as a criminal offence under the Fraud Act and that Local Authorities should terminate any contract with companies whose activities are proved fraudulent.

Hopefully - this might help to extinguish the perennial plods' get-out of "It's nuffink to do wiv us, guv'nor - it's a Civil matter" - and maybe (JUST maybe...) get some bailiff law training drilled into those unfortunate young coppers who get dragged into this ever-expanding mire.
So there we are more sticks to hit them
with.

How else will you be able to gently lead them into the trap?
True. I'm all in favour of paying out the rope to those who might want a little more. Likewise, the paint-brushes and the shovels !!!

....

[Monzter]

Re: Ahhhh will I ever learn......?

ACTUALLY - following Cloggy's wonderful, yet wretchedly comedic - response...

Have you ensured the safety of the equine side of your 'family,' dear Monz ? These bailiffs will stop at nowt to distress you and yours - and there are still plenty of ways to dispose of our old friends - even though the likes of Tesco have (allegedly) withdrawn their "Every Little Helps" ingredient from their mass-produced, no questions asked, people-fodder.

Yes I have My name sake on here is tucked away with his loan family and as for the other one - if they can catch him then good luck to them! He tried to kick my head off today for daring to try and bring him in......!! But seriously I haven't ever paid money for him and I have the loan document and insurance details to prove that he is owned by someone else legally. Thanks Bill

I have emailed council today. In the past I have had separate account numbers for each council tax year, this appears to have changed and my arrears from last year, and the arrears and future payments from this year all have the same account number on the top. I have for one, asked them if this is correct, and offered a payment plan that will clear everything outstanding (including this years CT) by end of Feb 2014. I've asked them to provide the usual LO info, account numbers years and amounts and also a breakdown of the fees added to my account by Jacobs (surprise there eh?!) namely the £350 they have added from the original LO amount. I've said that as no levy has been performed, no WPO signed etc, I believe the fees to be incorrect and asked them to advise me what they are for.

PT should I still send letter 1 to Jacobs as well or leave it until council reply, depending on what they say?
Made 1st payment today and it's not a small amount either, it will clear the account by end of Feb 2014, as it includes this years CT as well.
Have had a reply saying that it will be forwarded on to revenues who will reply within 10 days etc.

Thank you all so much for your input!

[ploddertom]

Re: Ahhhh will I ever learn......?

I'd be inclined to write to the Bailiffs as well and compare what you get. If the Council are using the same reference numbers for each year how are they signifying which debt payments are being allocated to?

[Monzter]

Re: Ahhhh will I ever learn......?

That's what I've asked them.......for now the amount I am paying coming off either account will at least reduce something and show willing and I should have a reply within 10 days or so they say anyway.

I have thought that maybe they are allocating one account number to each person so to speak and signifying the difference using years? The debt with Jacobs is for 2012/13 the arrears for this year are 2013/14 (obviously)
I await their response to know what to do next. If needs be will make two payments a week to separate account numbers.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Ahhhh will I ever learn......?

Quote the council the new guidance regarding use of bailiffs at

4.5

1. Local Authorities should remain prepared to deal directly with individuals at any point. It is perfectly within their gift to call action back from the bailiffs at any time and where there is a case to do so they should consider such action.
   
   full document here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/council-tax

Nifty quote, Bob - and that appears to be a UK-wide thing.

So - Monz - it doesn't effectively bind them, if I read it right - but it means that they cannot say that the matter is "Out of our hands," as they so lurve to do. Finding exactly where the buck stops is always a paper-chase, innit - and I reckon this is a good step along the way.

This may have been recently emphasised in "guidance" issued by the department headed by Eric Fatso Pickles, but it is hardly new law. Article 70 (link) of the Local Authorities (Contracting Out of Tax Billing, Collection and Enforcement Functions) Order 1996 is some 17 years old.

[bizzybob]

Re: Ahhhh will I ever learn......?

Exactly CC nothing like reminding them that the sanctions have always been there, problem is getting plod to apply them, as in do a bailiff for fraud, and also the complicit council officers.

[Bill-K]

Re: Ahhhh will I ever learn......?

I've had various skirmishes with our local council over the years regarding CT. Sure - they also 'called the dogs out' when a disagreement with them went unresolved recently. It was subsequently resolved, but I still had to call the dogs off myself, by telling them that they had been called out un-necessarily. FWIW, our Council Tax account here is denoted by an 8-digit number. The first 7 digits do not change from year to year, and they obviously denote us as CT payers generally, but the final digit advances by 1 each year to denote each separate CT year.

[Monzter]

Re: Ahhhh will I ever learn......?

Right today I have received a reply to my email. In the email I offered a payment plan (that's important later) and asked for a breakdown of fees added by bailiff and if both my accounts are under the same account number, I emailed the council, have not and am not dealing with Jacobs, full stop.

Basically they have said that both accounts, the one with the arrears with the bailiff and this years arrears, with date set for LO 10/07/13, are under the same account. They have said that the bailiff arrears will remain with the bailiff, and to call them (council) regarding the second amount to make an arrangement, I've already done that in my first email, and quite frankly I cannot afford to be kept on hold for hours at the expense of my phone credit, to be fobbed off again. I am going to email again, with the details of my payment offer again, and tell then due to my financial circumstances I cannot afford the credit to ring them, which is true, I can't.

Now to the bailiff, they (council) have provided me with a fee breakdown, and all I can say is oh dear. The bailiff has levied on a car parked outside my house, one which I don't own. They've added levy and van fees to the account. Firstly they have placed the account on hold with the bailiffs to give me chance to respond for 14 days. Now they have asked me to provide proof should I not own the vehicle. Erm.......how do you provide proof you DON'T own something???!!! I don't even have a full driving licence, never owned a car, the car that they have levied I assume belongs to my neighbours. I don't even know my neighbours, and certainly don't keep track of the cars that come and go outside my house, it's a terraced street, not a driveway or anything so basically I have no idea what they expect me to do. Should I prove that I don't own every randomly parked car on the whole flippin' street?! I'm tempted to just let them crack on to be honest and clamp it and take it, enough rope and all that. But in the interests of not ******* off my neighbours and keeping my windows intact, I think I need to do something.....
My plan is to reply to council, set down my payment plan again (along with receipt numbers of payments already made) and remind them I've already made an offer.....I know what they're doing, they're hanging on to get the LO. Then tell them that I have never owned a vehicle, don't hold a full driving licence and have never received any kind of documentation regarding the levy on this car (I haven't) and have no idea what car they are talking about, and ask them just how I prove that I don't own a car randomly parked on the terraced street in the vicinity of my house.

Thoughts please?
Thanks :tinysmile_hmm_t2:

[bizzybob]

Re: Ahhhh will I ever learn......?

Get your local council member involved, and ask them how you prove you don't own a car. If I was your councillor, I would be steaming in to revenues department declaring a jihad on their sorry jive asses for opening the council up to charges of maladministration, and appraising them of the Blaby council/Rossendales LGO findings.

[Monzter]

Re: Ahhhh will I ever learn......?

Thanks BB how do I find out who my local council member is please? And it's Jacobs not Rossendales :tinysmile_aha_t: not that it makes much difference which bunch of cowboy robbers it is.......!

[CleverClogs]

Re: Ahhhh will I ever learn......?

how do I find out who my local council member is please?

Telephone the Town Hall or, if it has not yet been closed, the local library.