Naive bailiff encounter

[Skeptikz]

Hi all,

I've been reading through many of the topics here and clearly you all have a great deal of experience and knowledge about these "people" so I hope you can help me:

Basically I recently moved back to my mums house (I'm over 18), and today had a visit from a bailiff regarding council tax. Having now read up on how to deal with them + what my rights are, I basically fell for a number of tricks in which they gained entry to the premises (they did clearly put their foot in the door to stop me from closing it a number of times + I was trying to lead the conversation away from the door but they entered with the door on the latch, without going through me, at which point I clearly said I have not given you permission to enter to which they responded "we don't need your permission" - is this lawful to begin with?)

So, my mum wasn't in and I tried to contact her (again, believing their tosh that once they were inside there was nothing I could do). When it was apparent I couldn't get hold of her they started taking inventory of the items in the living room and asked for £800ish which they then brought down to £500 (claiming £3000 total was owed). In the panic I rallied together the £500 for them but did not sign a walking agreement (only a receipt for the payment made).

When my mum arrived home, being much more bailiff savvy, she was understandably annoyed about the situation and revealed that she already had an ongoing agreement with the local council to pay off the debt every month. She has advised me to get the credit card payment cancelled on Monday. Additionally, having looked at the document they left behind, most of the items in their list belong to me (musical equipment) & not my mum (which I can prove), and of the items in the house that do belong to my mum they certainly would not be enough to pay off the debt (28" CRT TV, video player, skybox, hifi & surround speakers, microwave & VERY old pc - totalling, i would imagine, significantly less than 1/3 of the total debt claimed.)

At this point I'm worried that they can come back at any hour any day forcibly and take whatever items they want from the list + would rather they dont take my mums things so what should we do now?!!?!?


Thanks in advance for all your help!!!

[bluebottle]

Re: Naive bailiff encounter

The fact they put their foot in the door is sufficient to invalidate any levy they may claim to have. It amounts to illegal forced entry. Even if they subsequently entered without pushing past you, the fact that they used force immediately prior to this is sufficient. I will ask one of the other LB members who is familiar with bailiff matters to look in and confirm either way, but my gut-feeling is that this bailiff has crossed the line and can be refused entry. Any attempt to force entry would be unlawful without a court order signed in ink by a judge.

[ploddertom]

Re: Naive bailiff encounter

The foot in the door trick is an old method that bailiffs use, unfortunately it will come down to your word against his unless there was an independent witness present. Just so you know, even if a Bailiff does gain entry you can still tell him to leave - which he must do unless he has already started making a levy on goods. I assume he has left you with a Notice of Seizure (Form 7) - can you list the items exactly as described on the said Notice. Does the Notice also list the charges he has made - may be on the reverse?

I assume this is for your mum's debt - does she know how much she owes as confirmed by the Council. If not then she needs to speak to someone at the Council and ask the following questions:
1 - how many Liability Orders they have against you
2 - the dates they were obtained
3 - the addresses they were for
4 - the period of time each covers
5 - how much each one was for
6 - how much is still outstanding
7 - the dates they were passed on for enforcement
8 - the dates & amounts of any payments

[Skeptikz]

Re: Naive bailiff encounter

Thank you for the quick reply. It is good to hear that, but if I/my mum were to take things further on that technicality, how could I possibly prove that was the case?

Again, thank you - I really appreciate the help...

EDIT: I started replying before ploddertom's response...

Here are the items on the list:

Technics (silver) four stack sterio[sic] system, Panasonic 28" TV, Sony VHS Player, Sky+HD Box, Apple Mac, SME Intelligent Keyboard Controller, Akai Sampler MPC2000XL.

Everything after the skybox belongs to me & I have paypal/bank statements & receipts that can prove so.

Re charges:

Liability order & court costs: £587.30
Levy/attendance to levy: £42.50
Removal/attendance to remove: £210.00
Other: £44.00

They accepted £512.50 there and then (£500 + 3% credit card charge + VAT)

[ploddertom]

Re: Naive bailiff encounter

It is good to hear that, but if I/my mum were to take things further on that technicality, how could I possibly prove that was the case?

Sorry, you've lost me?

[bluebottle]

Re: Naive bailiff encounter

The ruling in the case of Rai & Rai -v- Birmingham City Council [1993] refers to the "foot in the door" trick. A definite no-no.

[Skeptikz]

Re: Naive bailiff encounter

Sorry, you've lost me?

Sorry for the confusion - that 1st bit was in reply to bluebottle with regards to the 'foot in the door trick'. I meant how could I prove that they put their foot in the door as they would obviously dispute it.

[ploddertom]

Re: Naive bailiff encounter

Sorry for the confusion - that 1st bit was in reply to bluebottle with regards to the 'foot in the door trick'. I meant how could I prove that they put their foot in the door as they would obviously dispute it.

That's the difficult bit, you could look up the case BB has quoted and see if there is any wriggle room. My thought however is to put it down to experience and look for something else. My understanding of what you said originally is that it is your mums debt and seemingly owes for more than 1 year, he has levied on goods that do not belong to the debtor - you, and there is a good chance you can argue the levy is either unlawful or of insufficient value. Don't forget he only did it in order to gain a financial advantage for himself and his Company. There is a good chance it can be overturned. After all if you say you think your mum owes £3k then he will need to seize goods in the region of £20k - £30k to satisfy the debt if he was to remove them for sale.

[bluebottle]

Re: Naive bailiff encounter

Some of the charges levied are not in accordance with relevant legislation. If it was the bailiff's first visit, he can only charge £24.50 for that visit. Also, he cannot charge Attendance to Levy and Attendance to Remove on the same day. Trading Standards refer to this as "Upfront Fee Fraud".

Could you please confirm if they entered whilst you were still at the door?

[Skeptikz]

Re: Naive bailiff encounter

Some of the charges levied are not in accordance with relevant legislation. If it was the bailiff's first visit, he can only charge £24.50 for that visit. Also, he cannot charge Attendance to Levy and Attendance to Remove on the same day. Trading Standards refer to this as "Upfront Fee Fraud".

Could you please confirm if they entered whilst you were still at the door?

No I'd tried to move the conversation away from the door but left the door on the latch so I could get back in. For some reason I thought they needed permission to enter & I wasn't in the doorway so they started walking in. As soon as I saw this I tried walking in-front of them with my hands up (to signify that they should stop) and said I havent given them permission to which they replied "we don't need it". By then they were already in the house and I assumed I was F@*$%ed. Also, it wasn't the bailiffs 1st visit - I understand they have been trying for some time (asking neighbours etc)


Re Ploddertom - so are you saying if there isn't enough to cover even a fraction of £20k - £30k, that they cannot remove any of it as it will only be for their financial advantage?

[CleverClogs]

Re: Naive bailiff encounter

Here are the items on the list:
Technics (silver) four stack sterio[sic] system, Panasonic 28" TV, Sony VHS Player, Sky+HD Box, Apple Mac, SME Intelligent Keyboard Controller, Akai Sampler MPC2000XL.

Everything after the skybox belongs to me & I have paypal/bank statements & receipts that can prove so.

Did you tell the oaf that some of the items belong to you?

They'll tell you otherwise, but they are not lawfully permitted to seize goods belonging to someone other than the debtor.

Re charges:

Excessive, as one would expect. Can you say which firm of thugs was involved?

Liability order & court costs: £587.30

That's quite different from the £3000 he mentioned but, then, bailiffs tell lies.

Levy/attendance to levy: £42.50

For that size of debt, the correct levy fee would be (24.50 + 16 + 87.3*0.025), rounded up to £43.

He's charged two visit fees for a single visit, which seems a bit naughty.

Removal/attendance to remove: £210.00

That is certainly naughty, as it is an "up front fee" - they may not charge for "removal" or a "van fee" without giving their victim a chance to pay.

Other: £44.00

What is that supposed to mean?

They accepted £512.50 there and then (£500 + 3% credit card charge + VAT)

Also naughty - they are not permitted to charge any fees not listed in the regulations.

Please see the attached file.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Naive bailiff encounter

Also, it wasn't the bailiffs 1st visit - I understand they have been trying for some time (asking neighbours etc)

That is also more than a little bit naughty, as they should not cause needless embarrassment or harassment to the debtor.

Re Ploddertom - so are you saying if there isn't enough to cover even a fraction of £20k - £30k, that they cannot remove any of it as it will only be for their financial advantage?

That's right.

I doubt the items they could lawfully take would even cover the removal sale costs!

[bluebottle]

Re: Naive bailiff encounter

If your mother was already paying this debt off, what was the bailiff doing at her home, behaving like a football hooligan? That could amount to harassment on the part of the council, the bailiff or both. Someone at the local council has some explaining to do. Get onto your local ward councillor and the elected Leader of the Council.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Naive bailiff encounter

When my mum arrived home, being much more bailiff savvy, she was understandably annoyed about the situation and revealed that she already had an ongoing agreement with the local council to pay off the debt every month.

This also needs to be chased, as it seems that the council is enforcing payment twice over.

Has your local council "outsourced" its Council Tax collection to Crapita?

[bluebottle]

Re: Naive bailiff encounter

This also needs to be chased, as it seems that the council is enforcing payment twice over.

Has your local council "outsourced" its Council Tax collection to Crapita?

Valid point, CC. Which bailiff company is the bailiff from, please? Please be aware that the behaviour you have experienced can be curbed with something called a Regulation 46 complaint to the magistrates court that issued the LO. The court can order the council to desist from that sort of action. It was a Regulation 46 complaint that resulted in the ruling in Rai & Rai -v- Birmingham City Council [1993].