Not my debt

**CleverClogs** · 6th July 2012, 06:54:AM

Re: Not my debt

Originally posted by KeithB View Post

about a couple of scumbag 'bailiffs' and their lickspittle police lackeys:
Who are you
Told them my name and that it was my house
Can you prove that
Why would I need to do that
We've got a warrant against this address

That's their first mistake - the house does not owe anything. JJ does, but the merest glance at the electoral roll would have suggested to Screwtop and Turdbrain that JJ resided elsewhere.

Can I see it
No

Wrong again.

How would I go about proving who I am
Show us a council tax bill (Yes I now know this might all have ended at this point)
Why should I show you my private papers and anyway the tax bill only proves I pay the bill not that I own the house

You do not have to prove anything to them.

Then we'll have to search the place to prove he's not here
How will searching the place prove anything and no you are not coming into my house

Why did you not return to your house at that stage, to lock and bar all the doors and windows?

We're calling the Police.

At this point I'm thinking good, the Police will calm the situation down, establish who these people are and make me feel a little less threatened. These were big guys and quite threatening in their demeanour. I ask them to move their van and am told No.

Police arrive, have a chat with the two men out of my hearing and then all 4 approach me. Policeman 1 offers his hand and introduces himself and his colleague. I explained that I didn't know who these men were and that I hadn't been served with or seen a warrant. The Policeman asked to see the warrant and was told No – he didn't argue. At this point I twigged that none of these people were on my side or even listening to what I had to say. One of the 'bailiffs' started to walk around the back of my house, I asked the PC to call him back until we had established some facts but he didn't. I followed to see what was going on and found him in my hallway. He told me he had gained peaceful and legal entry and that he was going to search my house. I told him he wasn't. At this point the two policemen arrived and one stepped into the house. The 'bailiff' tried to push past me, I stopped him – no mean feat for a 65 year old – the PC looked towards his colleague ignoring the struggle – I reached out and touched the PC's arm to attract his attention and was told “Don't you touch me” The 'bailiff' stepped back – I told the PC I was only trying to gain his attention and he replied “You're under arrest” The PC's took an arm each and escorted me outside. I asked what I had been arrested for and was told – Breach of the Peace, err, no, Conduct likely to cause a Breach of the Peace. I pointed out that he hadn't cautioned me. He wasn't pleased with that, pushed his face in mine, cautioned me and asked me if I wanted to say anything. I shook my head.

As you have gathered from that, the police are remarkably clueless. Some constables, though, are so utterly thick as be barely able to find their own bum-hole even with the help of a torch, a diagram and a training video.

At that point, you have been wrongly arrested and unlawfully detained, whilst the bailiff is permitted to trespass where he pleases and, should the whim take him, to steal whatever he pleases.

Has anything - watches, rings, jewellery, money - been stolen?

The 'bailiff' searched my house and found nothing (not sure what he was searching for – how do you prove a negative?), questioned my partner and left the house. The PC told me I was un-arrested. As we all stood outside the back door the 'bailiff' who had searched the house started to ask me to prove that I owned the cars in the yard. I must admit I wasn't feeling very well disposed towards him at this time and told him to pay a few quid and ask the DVLA. The 'bailiff' said something about more visits and they all left.

Which firm of ba:censored:rd bailiffs was involved?

Was the arrest legal?

Is the Pope Jewish?

Can you be simply un-arrested?

Not really, as you had been prevented from ensuring that none of your property, goods and chattels were not stolen by the intruder.

Was the search legal?

Again, not really, as you had told them that JJ did not live there and they had no reason to doubt yout word.

Now that they have gained peaceful and legal entry can the 'bailiffs' come back at any time, break in if they chose and take my property?

No, as no 'walking possession agreement' was made. They cannot take any property belonging to you, your partner, your mistress or your toy poodle to satisfy any debt or fine incurred by JJ. Were they to attempt that, it would be house breaking and theft although, as the plods in your area seem more than usually devoid of clues, it would not seem sensible to expect much - if any - assistance from them.

Can I prevent this and if so how do I do it?

Swear a statement before a Commissioner for Oaths - most lawyers will do this - to the effect that JJ (give his full name) does not reside at your house and that none of the contents thereof belong to him.

Make copies of it, laminate them and affix them to your doors.

I still don't know if they were bailiffs. I do remember one saying at some point they were High Court Bailiffs and that it was about a motoring offence but I saw no ID and was shown no legal document of any kind. They also talked about locksmiths and breaking in if I refused permission.

From the way those two delinquent dibbles behaved, they might try that. It would probably be illegal, though.

Do I have grounds to complain?

Is the Chief Rabbi a Jew?

Who do I complain to?

Initially, to the local plods' "Professional Standards Department", if they have one, and to the Chief Constable.

And may God have mercy on your soul.

**KeithB** · 6th July 2012, 07:36:AM

Re: Not my debt

Thanks for the comments/advice.
I don't know who the supposed bailiffs were or what firm they worked for. I was not shown or given any documents. The 2 PC's did introduce themselves but given what was happening at the time I didn't make a note of their names and my memory is not as sharp as it was.
I know enough about police procedures to know that there will be records of who attended the call.
I didn't retreat to the house as I was not aware people could enter it without some sort of due legal process. I'll know better if there is a next time. Given the police actions I suspect they would have helped the Bailiffs gain entry and I didn't fancy a seige.
Any ideas how I can trace the bailiffs? Am I correct in thinking that as the warrant was not in my name I will face the usual Data Protection issues of we can't discuss this as you are not the named person? Lastly, for now anyway, if I can trace the bailiff what action can I take against them?

**Guest** · 6th July 2012, 08:37:AM

Re: Not my debt

Originally posted by KeithB View Post

Was the arrest legal?
Can you be simply un-arrested?
Was the search legal?
Now that they have gained peaceful and legal entry can the 'bailiffs' come back at any time, break in if they chose and take my property?
Can I prevent this and if so how do I do it?

1. Unfortunately, yes it was legal.
2. Yes, a suspect can be un-arrested.
3. Yes, the search was legal. A certificated bailiff has an authority of the court to enter a property 'without permission'. That means he legally walked into your house. Bailiffs cannot commit breaking and entering.
4. No, because the bailiff discovered the debtor he is looking for, is not living at the property.
5. You wont hear from the bailiff again.

Originally posted by KeithB View Post

Do I have grounds to complain?
Who do I complain to?

I dont think you have much grounds to complaint about the bailiffs, but you might have grounds to complain against the police officers. Any complaint against police is addressed to the Independent Police Complaints Commission.

You need to see if the police have breached their training guidelines on attending the scene of bailiffs.

I am not allowed to post the link in this forum. To show you a copy of the official police guidance notes for police officers attending the scene of bailiffs, you need Google 'dealing with bailiffs' and follow the link called 'Official guidance for POLICE OFFICERS attending the scene of bailiffs'

Compare their conduct with those set out in the guidelines, and if you find anything then you can start your complaint.

**Guest** · 6th July 2012, 09:01:AM

Re: Not my debt

Was not the bailiff supposed to show his ID when challenged?

D

**Guest** · 6th July 2012, 09:25:AM

Re: Not my debt

Actually, you are right. He should have done.

Also now you mention it. See if the bailiffs certificiate is up to date. Enter his name into the Ministry of Justice public register of certificated bailiffs: http://certificatedbailiffs.justice....catedBailiffs/

If its not up to date, the police officers failed to notice and allowed an unlawful entry. The bailiff could be charged with burglary. - well, technically speaking.

**KeithB** · 6th July 2012, 09:31:AM

Re: Not my debt

Now I'm realy confused. Two men can turn up at my home, claim to be bailiffs but offer no proof, talk about a warrant against the property but refuse to show it to me, call the Police and have me arrested, enter and search my home against my express wishes and this is all legal and above board. Did I miss something or is this 1984.

**cheekymonkey07** · 6th July 2012, 09:34:AM

Re: Not my debt

The bailiff is the problem and the reason you posted on here and your beef should be with them and you partners son for not updating his new address with the DVLA, which by your comments that you overheard them saying it was a driving offence and he would most likely have been told to produce his documents at a police station and if it was an offence where points needed to be put on his licence they would have taken it from him and sent it off. if he had done this which by the way is against the law not to, you would not have had the visit in the first place. Also you should remind your partners son that it is his fault that this has happened and if the DVLA cannot put the points if any on the licence and the fine if any has not been paid they will revoke his licence and he will be driving against the law and will not be insured.

I can't really take your side of things and I do not agree with the other comments on this thread because the reason seems to be your partners son that this has happened, if people can't give any advice about the problem and can only create a new problem blaming the police for wasting there time with a matter that seems the bailiff was only doing what he was instructed to do although in a bad way and bad attitude the problem is your partners son blame him not the police.

I am not a police officer just a small transport company owner and ex service man I have had a lot of dealings with the police in the past and have always found them to be fair, I have also never had points on my licence or fined in 29 years driving because I stick to the rules of the road.

Thanks.

**Guest** · 6th July 2012, 09:34:AM

Re: Not my debt

The answers to your questions are correct, but as davyb has pointed out. The bailiff SHOULD have shown some evidence he was acting with authority of the court.

Your post doesnt say what kind of debt the bailiff was looking for. The rules on carrying appropriate documentation is different for each kind of debt a bailiff can collect.

**cheekymonkey07** · 6th July 2012, 09:40:AM

Re: Not my debt

Well done we are back on track giving the advice that KeithB requires complaining about the bailiff.

**KeithB** · 6th July 2012, 09:42:AM

Re: Not my debt

I have no idea what kind of debt this was. I was not told nor was I shown the warrant they claimed to have.
JJ is 23 years old, so an adult, hasn't lived in my house for 3 years and I have no control over his actions. I may blame him but I can't do anything about him. I have no way of knowing if this will keep happening and no way of preventing it.

**cheekymonkey07** · 6th July 2012, 09:42:AM

Re: Not my debt

There is a thread on here KeithB that deals with bailiff issues maybe you should read these to get the advice that you require.

**cheekymonkey07** · 6th July 2012, 09:45:AM

Re: Not my debt

They had a way of tracing you partners son to your address so take him off the electoral role, return any letters to sender and get him to change his address on his licence and with credit checking companies i.e. credit expert.

**KeithB** · 6th July 2012, 09:48:AM

Re: Not my debt

Thanks for that CM07. I have read the thread you refer to but didn't find anything that would help me.

He isn't on the electoral register for this address, all letters are returned to sender and I can't get him to deal with anything.

If it was a motoring offence I guess the court took his address from info the DVLA supplied and I can't change that.

**CleverClogs** · 6th July 2012, 09:50:AM

Re: Not my debt

Have you checked your cuff links and partner's jewellery?

Not my debt

Not my debt

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