Proof of actual debt transfer?

[wilsmith3868746]

Re: Proof of actual debt transfer?

The papertrail 'provenance' would be the various deeds of assignment. Most (if not all) of these firms regard them as commercially sensitive, & therefore usually off limits.
In the few instances that I've seen where the deed has been disclosed, it has been so heavily redacted as to be practically useless.
A SAR is not much good, as that is only for personal data.

Following the advice of the other forum, I requested a copy of the deed of assignment but was told something along the lines of it was commercially sensitive and contained information not just about my account. Personally, from my reading, I've never seen one disclosed.

As for the SAR, it was just to build a paper trail as to what had gone on and where. I buried my head for several years then decided I needed to sort it - the SAR and CCA request was just to see what was actually going on.

[nemesis45]

Re: Proof of actual debt transfer?

I got the initial NOA from Vanquis - had no issue with that. Then another from 1st Credit (Finance) 4 confirming the transfer from Vanquis to them.

After that, nothing even remotely resembling an assignment from anyone. I've SAR'd 1st Credit 2 or 3 times now and I've looked through and could never find any assignments from anywhere.

I initially complained that 1st Credit (Finance) Ltd - yet another group company - were processing my data without my consent (updating credit report), that's when the assignment letter reared it's head in 2016.

As it stands, I'm not fussed about waiting it out for another 2 years to time out - but it just annoys me that they're playing games with paperwork to try and hide from what they're doing. In my 'final response' letter from them in relation to the data processing issue, they specifically stated that two separate companies were the 'legal owner's of the debt. They couldn't even decide over the course of one letter who actually owns the debt.

You have had all that is required re the assignment.

For Assignment read " Deed of Assignment " which is the confidential commercially sensitive contract between the creditor and the debt purchaser,
any application for sight of this is routinely denied.

Although Lord Denning when Master of The Rolls stated that individuals had a right to view the Deed it has very little value.

Most requests I've seen have been attempts to find out how much a debt purchaser has paid for and individuals debt, but as debt is sold in huge portfolio lots it's basically a waste of time chasing it.

nem

[wilsmith3868746]

Re: Proof of actual debt transfer?

You have had all that is required re the assignment.

For Assignment read " Deed of Assignment " which is the confidential commercially sensitive contract between the creditor and the debt purchaser,
any application for sight of this is routinely denied.

Although Lord Denning when Master of The Rolls stated that individuals had a right to view the Deed it has very little value.

Most requests I've seen have been attempts to find out how much a debt purchaser has paid for and individuals debt, but as debt is sold in huge portfolio lots it's basically a waste of time chasing it.

nem

I could be wrong, you know what internet reading can be like!

But my understanding was that for an absolute assignment to take place, notice had to be given by the assigner? Playing devil's advocate, since 1st Credit (Finance) 4 Ltd folded before ever sending me notice they were assigning the debt - who's to say they actually did and it's not just 1st Credit chancing their luck?

[Diana M]

Re: Proof of actual debt transfer?

Following the advice of the other forum, I requested a copy of the deed of assignment but was told something along the lines of it was commercially sensitive and contained information not just about my account. Personally, from my reading, I've never seen one disclosed.

I don't know what other forum's advice you have been listening to but the court will and does order discloser of the Deed of Assignment when they set fit.

The Deed of Assignment will also state the "conditions" of the sale which relate to all the debts included in that assignment. The monitory value of the sale is less important.

Deeds of Assignment can be obtained through other sources. We have a library of them.

I hope that clarifies matters.

Di

[charitynjw]

Re: Proof of actual debt transfer?

Which we have successfully done

Di

Lol!
There's always gotta be one.............:taunt:

Seriously though, it would be an onerous task for the average Joe LiP to show how a firm is not authorised......wouldn't it......? :ear:

[nemesis45]

Re: Proof of actual debt transfer?

I could be wrong, you know what internet reading can be like!

But my understanding was that for an absolute assignment to take place, notice had to be given by the assigner? Playing devil's advocate, since 1st Credit (Finance) 4 Ltd folded before ever sending me notice they were assigning the debt - who's to say they actually did and it's not just 1st Credit chancing their luck?

No there's nothing wrong with what has been done here, yes certain other sites set forth conspiracy theories about unauthorised trading etc.
Which caused nothing but delays in dealing with claims and general confusion.

First Credit Finance (4) was just one part of a group of companies and held a portfolio of debts, these large groups in the debt collection industry became quite top heavy and once the FCA superseded the OFT the companies were tidied up.

nem

[charitynjw]

Re: Proof of actual debt transfer?

I could be wrong, you know what internet reading can be like!

But my understanding was that for an absolute assignment to take place, notice had to be given by the assigner? Playing devil's advocate, since 1st Credit (Finance) 4 Ltd folded before ever sending me notice they were assigning the debt - who's to say they actually did and it's not just 1st Credit chancing their luck?

Not by the assigner, 'under the hand of' the assigner.
Big difference!

[Diana M]

Re: Proof of actual debt transfer?

Seriously though, it would be an onerous task for the average Joe LiP to show how a firm is not authorised......wouldn't it......?

I would think it's near impossible for a LIP to get disclosure of the Deeds of Assignment, but I felt the need to dispel the myth that courts don't order it and the other myth that there's nothing in them of any use to a Defendant.

Di

[charitynjw]

Re: Proof of actual debt transfer?

I would think it's near impossible for a LIP to get disclosure of the Deeds of Assignment, but I felt the need to dispel the myth that courts don't order it and the other myth that there's noting in them of any use to a Defendant.

Di

Ouch!
You cut off my :ear:

[nemesis45]

Re: Proof of actual debt transfer?

I would think it's near impossible for a LIP to get disclosure of the Deeds of Assignment, but I felt the need to dispel the myth that courts don't order it and the other myth that there's noting in them of any use to a Defendant.

Di

There was no myth about courts ordering a deed to be disclosed many times since Lord Denning MR stating that the debtor had a right to sight of a deed but also I've heard judges ask why an LIP should want sight of a DOA.

[Diana M]

Re: Proof of actual debt transfer?

Ouch!

Sorry Charity, I didn't mean to sound abrupt.

But it's very frustrating to read people say that the Deed of Assignment is never available through the court process when what they really mean is they've never read about them being disclosed on an internet forum where LIPs tell their stories.

As you say LIPs probably won't get them, but solicitors do. And when we do they can be invaluable to the case.

Di

[nemesis45]

Re: Proof of actual debt transfer?

Sorry Charity, I didn't mean to sound abrupt.

But it's very frustrating to read people say that the Deed of Assignment is never available through the court process when what they really mean is they've never read about it being disclosed on an internet forum where LIPs tell their stories.

As you say LIPs probably won't get them, but solicitors do. And when we do they can be invaluable to the case.

Di

No one especially me has said a court cannot or does not order disclosure of a DOA I find your approach rather frustrating, members of LB most often don't have the luxury of a solicitor to represent them and people who want to complicate matters that can be promptly resolved are unnecessary..

[Diana M]

Re: Proof of actual debt transfer?

No one especially me has said a court cannot or does not order disclosure of a DOA I find your approach rather frustrating.

Ahem

For Assignment read " Deed of Assignment " which is the confidential commercially sensitive contract between the creditor and the debt purchaser,
any application for sight of this is routinely denied.

Di

[charitynjw]

Re: Proof of actual debt transfer?

Sorry Charity, I didn't mean to sound abrupt.

But it's very frustrating to read people say that the Deed of Assignment is never available through the court process when what they really mean is they've never read about them being disclosed on an internet forum where LIPs tell their stories.

As you say LIPs probably won't get them, but solicitors do. And when we do they can be invaluable to the case.

Di

Lol, no apology necessary, Di.

As with any job, if I employed a professional to do it, I would anticipate/hope that they would have access to better knowledge & 'equipment'.

[nemesis45]

Re: Proof of actual debt transfer?

[QUOTE=Diana M;687344]Ahem


As you have stated an LIP will find it difficult if not impossible to gain sight of a DOA Ahem:judgey:

As we deal in the main with LIP's on this forum your points are inapplicable.

- - - Updated - - -

[QUOTE=Diana M;687344]Ahem


As you have stated an LIP will find it difficult if not impossible to gain sight of a DOA Ahem:judgey:

As we deal in the main with LIP's on this forum your points are inapplicable.