Proof of actual debt transfer?

[wilsmith3868746]

I've had an on-going situation with 1st Credit for a few years now, I was previously seeking advice over on another forum but was getting nowhere so decided to just wait the time out for the default to lapse. 1st Credit (in their many guises) have been sending me discount for full settlement offers on a monthly basis so assumed they haven't got a leg to stand on and ignored them. I've checked my credit file today and noticed they've started doing debt collection traces on me again so thought I'd get prepared in case anything comes out of the woodwork.

• Basically, Vanquis was the original creditor - defaulted on a small(ish) amount.
• Debt was officially sold on to 1st Credit (Finance) 4 Ltd with 1st Credit Ltd assigned as the agents for managing and collecting payments on their behalf.
• 1st Credit (Finance) 4 Ltd were dissolved in December 2015. (My understanding being assets get passed to the Crown)
• Received an account assignment letter (attached) in January 2016 claiming they took over the debt in June 2013.

Now there's been an on-going debate on another forum for quite some time that it became a little confusing about this - maybe we can get a better answer here. My question is, given that an 'account assignment' was issued in January 2016, after the original debt owner was legally dissolved, does it still stand that they complied with a legal transfer?

Section 136, of the Law of Property Act 1925 states:

"Any absolute assignment by writing under the hand of the assignor (not purporting to be by way of charge only) of any debt or other legal thing in action, of which express notice in writing has been given to the debtor, trustee or other person from whom the assignor would have been entitled to claim such debt or thing in action, is effectual in law (subject to equities having priority over the right of the assignee) to pass and transfer from the date of such notice."

However, I was previously told that an assignment can take place, and I wouldn't have needed to have known about it at that time - the fact they gave me notice of the assignment that had previously taken place at some point in time was merely enough to comply?


I've SAR'd them multiple times, and got a copy of the reconstituted agreement - but under the reams of paper, I'm not entirely sure where or what to be looking for.

[charitynjw]

Re: Proof of actual debt transfer?

Hi & welcome to LB.

• 1st Credit (Finance) 4 Ltd were dissolved in December 2015. (My understanding being assets get passed to the Crown)
• Received an account assignment letter (attached) in January 2016 claiming they took over the debt in June 2013.

Do you have a creditable/verifiable reason to doubt this?

It would appear they are suggesting that an equitable assignment occurred during June 2013, this becoming an absolute/legal assignment when you received notification of same 'from the date of such notice', that being via the Notice of Assignment (Jan 2016) posted above.

[wilsmith3868746]

Re: Proof of actual debt transfer?

Hi & welcome to LB.



Do you have a creditable/verifiable reason to doubt this?

It would appear they are suggesting that an equitable assignment occurred during June 2013, this becoming an absolute/legal assignment when you received notification of same 'from the date of such notice', that being via the Notice of Assignment (Jan 2016) posted above.

Sorry, maybe my initial wording was incorrect. The assignment from June 2013 they refer to in the letter was my interpretation of them taking over the debt/account.

I understand the equitable assignment gave them certain rights to act on their behalf during this time, but did not give them ownership over the account. Given the Notice of Assignment (Jan 2016) would have become the date of an absolute/legal assignment - could they legally do it at this stage, considering that by that time, the initial legal ownership of the debt/account was still held by a dissolved limited company who had no rights to any assets upon dissolution?

[nemesis45]

Re: Proof of actual debt transfer?

The changes within many debt purchase companies as caused a lot of confusions because certain companies in the groups act as holding companies for the principal company that has FCA regulation.

The principal then makes one or two companies in the group there authorised representative which then carries out the day to day business of debt collection.

You can see many instance of this the Cabot Group is one of the clearest examples of how this now works.

Often debt purchaser " hang on" to debts for some considerable time be for pursuing them.
I believe that it is very highly unlikely that there is anything at fault with the assignment of your debt.

Can we see the recon agreement please.

nem

[wilsmith3868746]

Re: Proof of actual debt transfer?

The changes within many debt purchase companies as caused a lot of confusions because certain companies in the groups act as holding companies for the principal company that has FCA regulation.

The principal then makes one or two companies in the group there authorised representative which then carries out the day to day business of debt collection.

You can see many instance of this the Cabot Group is one of the clearest examples of how this now works.

Often debt purchaser " hang on" to debts for some considerable time be for pursuing them.
I believe that it is very highly unlikely that there is anything at fault with the assignment of your debt.

Can we see the recon agreement please.

nem

I'll find the agreement and post it up.

RE the holding companies - the letter claims that 1st Credit (Finance) Ltd are the legal owners and that 1st Credit Ltd are servicing the account. The potential issue I spotted is, 1st Credit (Finance) Ltd don't have FCA authorisation, whereas the servicing company 1st Credit Ltd do have the authorisation.

I can't remember whether there was any clarity as to to whether an FCA authorised company company could enforce debt collection on behalf of a non-approved.

[nemesis45]

Re: Proof of actual debt transfer?

I'll find the agreement and post it up.

RE the holding companies - the letter claims that 1st Credit (Finance) Ltd are the legal owners and that 1st Credit Ltd are servicing the account. The potential issue I spotted is, 1st Credit (Finance) Ltd don't have FCA authorisation, whereas the servicing company 1st Credit Ltd do have the authorisation.

I can't remember whether there was any clarity as to to whether an FCA authorised company company could enforce debt collection on behalf of a non-approved.

The manner in which 1st Credit Finance is trading meets the FCA is fine it's using an Authorised Representative which is regulated.

I've seen quite a few 1st Credit " recons " and they need almost forensic examination.

nem

[charitynjw]

Re: Proof of actual debt transfer?

It would appear from the above posts/attachments that the equitable assignment pre-dated, by 2.5 years, 1st Credit (Finance) 4 ltd being dissolved. (I haven't delved into any historical evidence of this).
When express notice is then given to the debtor, trustee etc. it becomes a legal assignment.
I have not seen any time limit imposed on serving such notice.

[wilsmith3868746]

Re: Proof of actual debt transfer?

Looking through the copy paperwork again, all they sent in response to the CCA request was 2 pages of data submitted on the application form, entitled "Digital signature application details". There's also about 10 pages of terms and conditions apparently in force at the time.

Not entirely sure which part you'd like to see.

[wilsmith3868746]

Re: Proof of actual debt transfer?

It would appear from the above posts/attachments that the equitable assignment pre-dated, by 2.5 years, 1st Credit (Finance) 4 ltd being dissolved. (I haven't delved into any historical evidence of this).
When express notice is then given to the debtor, trustee etc. it becomes a legal assignment.
I have not seen any time limit imposed on serving such notice.

From memory, there was never any notification whatsoever in regards to any assignment from 1st Credit (Finance) 4 Ltd to any other company. I only received a copy of the above notice, after the fact, because I raised a complaint about the matter. Prior to that complaint, they never notified me of any change in assignment whatseoever.

[nemesis45]

Re: Proof of actual debt transfer?

From memory, there was never any notification whatsoever in regards to any assignment from 1st Credit (Finance) 4 Ltd to any other company. I only received a copy of the above notice, after the fact, because I raised a complaint about the matter. Prior to that complaint, they never notified me of any change in assignment whatseoever.

The problem is that NOA's can be sent by a creditor and/or the debt purchaser, many of these can be confusing as your example some may think its just an introduction but it is in fact an NOA.

nem

[charitynjw]

Re: Proof of actual debt transfer?

Re FCA authorisation, I agree with @nemesis45.

Some months ago I contacted the FCA re other firms who were apparently acting without authorisation.
The gist of the reply was that the firm(s) were making a commercial decision & the correct place to voice dispute would be in a court of law.
Also they (FCA) made clear that they do not become involved in individual cases, but would note my concern for possible future reference.
(Pontious Pilate Guide to Handwashing)

[wilsmith3868746]

Re: Proof of actual debt transfer?

The problem is that NOA's can be sent by a creditor and/or the debt purchaser, many of these can be confusing as your example some may think its just an introduction but it is in fact an NOA.

nem

I got the initial NOA from Vanquis - had no issue with that. Then another from 1st Credit (Finance) 4 confirming the transfer from Vanquis to them.

After that, nothing even remotely resembling an assignment from anyone. I've SAR'd 1st Credit 2 or 3 times now and I've looked through and could never find any assignments from anywhere.

I initially complained that 1st Credit (Finance) Ltd - yet another group company - were processing my data without my consent (updating credit report), that's when the assignment letter reared it's head in 2016.

As it stands, I'm not fussed about waiting it out for another 2 years to time out - but it just annoys me that they're playing games with paperwork to try and hide from what they're doing. In my 'final response' letter from them in relation to the data processing issue, they specifically stated that two separate companies were the 'legal owner's of the debt. They couldn't even decide over the course of one letter who actually owns the debt.

[Diana M]

Re: Proof of actual debt transfer?

Re FCA authorisation . . . .

Some months ago I contacted the FCA re other firms who were apparently acting without authorisation.
The gist of the reply was that the firm(s) were making a commercial decision & the correct place to voice dispute would be in a court of law.

Which we have successfully done

Di

[charitynjw]

Re: Proof of actual debt transfer?

From memory, there was never any notification whatsoever in regards to any assignment from 1st Credit (Finance) 4 Ltd to any other company. I only received a copy of the above notice, after the fact, because I raised a complaint about the matter. Prior to that complaint, they never notified me of any change in assignment whatseoever.

The papertrail 'provenance' would be the various deeds of assignment. Most (if not all) of these firms regard them as commercially sensitive, & therefore usually off limits.
In the few instances that I've seen where the deed has been disclosed, it has been so heavily redacted as to be practically useless.
A SAR is not much good, as that is only for personal data.

[wilsmith3868746]

Re: Proof of actual debt transfer?

Also, thank you both (I'll now correct this to, everyone!) in advance for listening to my little rants - your help and guidance is very much valued and appreciated.