Council impersonating the court

[jaym2016]

Hi All,

Can the Council generate Liability Orders using Magistrates and court halls hired by the council for the council.
Can the council impersonate the court and generate LO and AOE using their IT department on the council headed paper without even a hearing and even if they are receiving payment through AOE?


Are these documents legal? Can I fight them in the high court?


I would really appreciate your help, thank you very much.

Thanks

[Kati]

Re: Council impersonating the court

tagging [MENTION=15129]Crazy council[/MENTION] [MENTION=8136]outlawlgo[/MENTION] [MENTION=62334]Snoopy1948[/MENTION]

[Snoopy1948]

Re: Council impersonating the court

Hi All,

Can the Council generate Liability Orders using Magistrates and court halls hired by the council for the council.
Can the council impersonate the court and generate LO and AOE using their IT department on the council headed paper without even a hearing and even if they are receiving payment through AOE?


Are these documents legal? Can I fight them in the high court?


I would really appreciate your help, thank you very much.

Thanks

Hi there ... not quite sure what you are asking here?

All councils have to apply to their respective magistrates courts for a liability order to be issued for every case that remains unpaid within the specified legal requirements. I assume that you are talking about unpaid council tax here? That is done by a recognised council officer attending the court with a complete list of all cases that require a liability order to give the council certain rights in how they enforce them. This is usually a list, often quite a thick list, and the council officer makes a statement that the contents are true and correct. I cannot see any circumstances where the council can impersonate a court, indeed they have to pay for the pleasure. The debtor has no legal requirement to attend a hearing to obtain a liability order although the debtor is always 'invited' to do so by presentation of a summons and is perfectly entitled to attend if he wishes or has argument to put forward ( normally filtered or seen by a council officer though ).

Once a magistrate has signed off the application, albeit often in bulk, then the council has every right to proceed with the statutory enforcement procedure and print off the liability orders as required.

You query whether a liability order can be issued when you are paying by AOE? An AOE requires the issue of a liability order before it can be requested from an employer. But council tax is annual and often you can be paying say unpaid council tax from two years ago while ( under previously issued liability orders ) while a fresh liability order can be sought for the current or more recent years. Remember an AOE only pays off previous debts and makes no contribution to any current charge as that is a fresh responsibility.

When I was working in council tax enforcement ( as an outside officer ) we would often create harmony with debts under liability order by accepting a voluntary attachment of earnings which we accepted to clear both current council tax charges and old ones under liability order. This didn't work with big employers of course as they simply hit a computer button to set it up and additional payments could not be arranged.

I believe you are confused therefore about an attachment of earnings for old debts while your new ones remain unpaid. Does that sound right?

[Crazy council]

Re: Council impersonating the court

Hi

There are some parts to add to the mechanism described above and it puts some answers to your questions,

Firstly, were [MENTION=62334]Snoopy1948[/MENTION] says's

and the council officer makes a statement that the contents are true and correct

They are agreeing a set of accounting rules have been met, that set minimum conditions for the quality and accuracy of the individual accounts, and its one of the mechanisms i have seen used by faltering council tax Departments regularly bypassed. Examples of what the court officer for the council is agreeing when they pass that pack of Liability orders over to the judge are :
; That all accounts are at least an agreed quality ( accuracy )
; That all checks and balances have been applied ( like making sure there not paying last years action still )
; That the debts are owed
The above include a number of specific regs, like making sure all payments to the council, are placed on the CORRECT individual CT account, before court lists are run ( empty suspense accounts oe unalocated payment account )

Any private company that presented LO paperwork like that to a judge would be pulled to pieces

I cannot see any circumstances where the council can impersonate a court, indeed they have to pay for the pleasure.

They do regularly, in a lot of councils, the debter is ordered to court, even if they ring up try sort it out ( any other way apart from paying ). One at court, they are approached by a officers usualy identifying themselves as a court officer ( from the CT department, not court ). This person that usually tells them they can not see the judge, and should just agree with teh order, and not challenge it.

[Snoopy1948]

Re: Council impersonating the court

Yes, I agree, council officers can use the 'serious nature' of a magistrates court to wield their stick, so to speak, and let the defendant believe what they want. WE used to refer to our 'court officer' as the guy who attended court on behalf of the council but he was never an officer of the court. Having said that, I used to execute arrest warrants with bail and was told ( by council management ) to tell the public that on that duty I was an officer of the court. The truth is of course I was never an officer of the court but legally empowered by the court to execute the warrant. Even with that in black and white, people would state that as a council officer I could not legally execute a warrant of arrest and would refuse to comply. I simply told them that they must attend on the due date at the due time or face being formally arrested, regardless of whether they signed and accepted the warrant.

Yes, council officers can be a tad egomaniacal at times, I have met many of them. But perhaps under situations where the debt needs to be enforced via the court, then whatever persuasions that help that run smoothly are to my mind welcome. One of the reasons why council officers perhaps 'take charge' and deny a defendant the right to go in front of a magistrate is that the magistrates simply don't want to be bothered, as they simply don't have the time nor the wherewithal to make a decision on agendas that can only be resolved by the council themselves. IN fact, in the final years of my council work, the magistrates courts had imposed heavy charges on the council to hear a 'committal to prison' case and an equally punishing fee to order a warrant of arrest, Neither of these costs was recoverable from the defendant and so they had to be paid out of public funds, not something the council I worked for would agree to. The reasons given for this was simply to dissuade councils bringing such hearings and in many ways it changed the whole map of local taxation enforcement and made it harder. And with the major changes in enforcement agent procedures in April 2014, when I retired, I was glad to leave it all behind.

[jaym2016]

Re: Council impersonating the court

The magistrates themselves are people hired by the council and for the council, they sometimes know the law and sometimes have no idea, they just did a 10 day course and from my inquiries anyone can be a magistrate but not anyone can be a judge, it takes a number of years of hard study and many years of practise so surely. the magistrate who is usually a solicitor on a council payroll should not be allowed to pass these Liability orders or signed them off, they should be done by proper judge on Oath.
The people that I spoke to, solicitors as well as barristers are telling me that a Liability Order is a very serious document but why is the council printing them left right and centre by their own IT Division. the one sent to me after I raised a SAR was in the form of a badly generated spreadsheet, when i showed it to the barrister, he could not believe it. he told me that I would be wasting my money if i wanted to challenge a document like that in a proper court because it will be rejected and the judge would not take me seriously. From one side, the council is telling me that if i am not happy with the fraudulant documents that they are generating that I should challenge them in court. I call the court and there is no Liability Order or Attachment Of Earning or a hearing or a court case or anything which leaves me in a very bad situation meanwhile the council is damping more and more charges, they have sent the bailiff ( again an employee of the council for the price of £225) they carry on charging me, they refuse to work out my Council tax, correct their mistake or remove the AEO and the nightmare continues.
It seems that the council have been given a carte blanche, they are not interested in collecting the council tax at all, they are interested in the extra charges. All this is happening when i am paying more than £150 a month for my rented two bed. According to the council, the money that I am paying is going towards the arreas and meanwhile more and more arreas have been applied making sure than I will never be paying my tax but rather the arreas generated by the charges that the council is charging me. It is a bit like a finance deal on a credit card, never ending. can anyone help? thanks guys,

[jaym2016]

Re: Council impersonating the court

Magistrates are members of the local community appointed by the Lord Chief Justice for England and Wales. Until 2013, they were appointed by the Lord Chancellor.
No formal qualifications are required but magistrates need intelligence, common sense, integrity and the capacity to act fairly. Membership should be widely spread throughout the area covered and drawn from all walks of life. Magistrates are typically recruited by a network of 47 local advisory committees, covering relevant geographical areas. They are made up serving magistrates and local non-magistrates.
All magistrates are carefully trained before sitting and continue to receive training throughout their service.
Magistrates are unpaid volunteers but they may receive allowances to cover travelling expenses and subsistence.
If you are considering becoming a magistrate we recommend you visit the GOV.UK website which has plenty of information and an application form. It is advisable to see if the area where you would like to sit has any vacancies. You can check here.
If selected you will have to sign a Declaration and Undertaking Form. To find your local court go to the Justice Court Finder.
Hard copies and copies in Braille can be obtained from:
The Magistrates HR Team
10th Floor, Thomas More
Royal Courts of Justice
London WC2A 2LL
You can also obtain an application pack through their website www.GOV.UK.

These are the people issuing Liability orders and giving the council the authority to destroy families, homes and to make a lot of money in the process. why do we need judges then? a computer and a printer is all is needed and I can stay at home and print millions of these court documents for a fee.

This is what we come down to...real shame.

[wales01man]

Re: Council impersonating the court

Thousands are hit by liability orders each year all obtained in the same way if this was illegal by now someone would have challenged it and won .
Remember its money owed for services paid for by the people those who do not pay are rightfully pursued through LOS and Bailiffs if debts are unpaid those who pay ontime should not have to subsidise those who do not.

not a perfect system but any alternative if found could cost the non payers more not less in fees and costs By the way I was one of those non payers I agreed a payment plan after an LO and paid lesson learnt?

[JulieM]

Re: Council impersonating the court

Jaym

You need to remember that there are always court officials with magistrates who tell them what powers they have in each case.

I am am not sure why you are defending won't pay

I realise that a few cant pay slip through the net but can't is of course subjective. Is the can't pay because you have two holidays a year or is it because of real poverty

[jaym2016]

Re: Council impersonating the court

Thousands are hit by liability orders each year all obtained in the same way if this was illegal by now someone would have challenged it and won .
Remember its money owed for services paid for by the people those who do not pay are rightfully pursued through LOS and Bailiffs if debts are unpaid those who pay ontime should not have to subsidise those who do not.

not a perfect system but any alternative if found could cost the non payers more not less in fees and costs By the way I was one of those non payers I agreed a payment plan after an LO and paid lesson learnt?

You are probably not informed enough, just type council tax scam and you will see how many cases and have been presented and not one lost. the reason people are not following is because it cost a lot of money to fight this, solicitors and barristers are expensive and the legal aid is no longer available so they have the poor in a corner. Most the money owed is generated from the charges and not from the council tax, take Aylesbury county council for example, the charges are as follows:
Ge Compliance stage: £75
ge Enforcement stage: £235
Liability order Costs: £60. This a council Liability order and not the courts, i.e no hearing and no court have taken place.
Summons Cost: £110.
Total cost: £480
The spreadsheet that was sent to me showed 1981 people were issued a liability this is in one day, simple math £480 x 1981= £950,880, this is per week, per month £3,803,520. Now maybe you can understand. the council is no longer interested in council tax collection because it does not make them that much money, they are interested in this money. This is illegal money, generated using fraudulant documents and imposed on the poorer community. The council would not try to collect the money instead it is summons after summons and court after court.
Not one case was lost in the high court against the council just google council scam and you will see most of it.
if you arre from the council and participating in this scam, i say a shame on you, maybe you have been educated.

it is not that people are not paying their council tax, it is people deprived of their right, it is the council being greedy and been given carte blanche by this government to steal money from their own citizen and as a thank you for voting them in.
This should stop immediately, there are many ways to collect council tax. the council should do their best and hire the right people to negotiate these payment and collect them without legally and according to the law and rules of this country.

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follow this link

http://council-tax-scam.blogspot.co.uk/

[wales01man]

Re: Council impersonating the court

You think it will change only if everyone pays up before action can be taken

[Snoopy1948]

Re: Council impersonating the court

Jaym2016 ..

it's interesting to note that two weeks ago, you posed a question that surprisingly you now appear to have every answer to, or at least an objection to every comment in response. The theory that council tax is a scam and that no one has ever had a contract with the council is very old hat and I thought it had run its course. No one likes shouldering financial liabilities but by the very nature of our civilised country, we all have to do it to maintain law and order and some structured decency in our lives. Not to do this is bordering on anarchy and there will always be people who enjoy that route. Where does your argument finish? I have no contract to pay income tax, value added tax, insurance premium tax and their enforcement can be far harsher than any council tax but they all make up the accepted penalties of a life that is seldom fair or trouble free. Oh, and just for the record, I hate paying council tax, always have, always will, but on the other hand, I like a quiet life.

[JulieM]

Re: Council impersonating the court

Jaym

Your logic and maths are flawed. You are making lots of assumption
1) That LO numbers remain constant
2) That every LO issued goes all the way to compliance stage
3) That there are no costs involved in running the bailiff service I.e wages, afmin, payroll taxes etc

[jaym2016]

Re: Council impersonating the court

Jaym2016 ..

it's interesting to note that two weeks ago, you posed a question that surprisingly you now appear to have every answer to, or at least an objection to every comment in response. The theory that council tax is a scam and that no one has ever had a contract with the council is very old hat and I thought it had run its course. No one likes shouldering financial liabilities but by the very nature of our civilised country, we all have to do it to maintain law and order and some structured decency in our lives. Not to do this is bordering on anarchy and there will always be people who enjoy that route. Where does your argument finish? I have no contract to pay income tax, value added tax, insurance premium tax and their enforcement can be far harsher than any council tax but they all make up the accepted penalties of a life that is seldom fair or trouble free. Oh, and just for the record, I hate paying council tax, always have, always will, but on the other hand, I like a quiet life.

No one is refusing to pay the council tax, the trouble is that the council is not interested in the council tax anymore, they want more than that hence the over charges, bogus documents and court documents with no court, no hearing. We all like a quiet life but if we all do the same as you and let the council get away with it, we would lose the law and order that you are talking about here because the council with their behaviour are breaking every single one, check out council tax regulations 34, 35, 36, 37. the law and order are in place but have to be respected not just by us but by all but all.
if we all did like you and were prepared to shut up and look for a peaceful life, we would not be where we are today but this government is breaking all the rules and regulations. One rule for the citizens and one rule for the council.
I can understand if you just want to sit and watch, we will fight for you if you are not prepared to talk.

[jaym2016]

Re: Council impersonating the court

Jaym

Your logic and maths are flawed. You are making lots of assumption
1) That LO numbers remain constant
2) That every LO issued goes all the way to compliance stage
3) That there are no costs involved in running the bailiff service I.e wages, afmin, payroll taxes etc

1- LO numbers constant or not, ask any judge on oath from high court if there is such a thing as a group LO. The LO is a very serious court documents, issued by the court of law from a judge on Oath. A copy is sent to you by the court and you are given the opportunity to attend the court, to be in a hearing and defend yourself in front of a neutral judge. In this case, the magistrate who could be just a member of public and never been to a law school in his life working for the court in a court hall hired by the council are issuing these documents. You cannot fight the document generated by the council or ask for it to be set aside because it is not a legal document and carry no weight, don't take my word for it, ask in court like I did.
2- They do, letters and threats and eventuallly council bailiff, someone who is working for the council without even a warrent or a liability orders comes and threaten your home, this is why they has been shootings in some part of the country, people have just had enough.
3- Bailiff companies are hired by the council, they get commission from the money collected. they have no relation to court.

So whatever way you look at this, the council is breaking he law and they should be stopped sooner rather than later, they are all at it, just research the web and read the cases taking place as we speak.

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You think it will change only if everyone pays up before action can be taken

Most people are happy to pay their council taxes, it is the council that is using the opportunity of a government who is turning the blind eye to STEAL MORE MONEY from the tax payers. Our council head is on £450,000 a year and our MP has cheated the tax payer for more than £152,000 worth of expenses, noone had to pay the money back.