Court summons - Failure to provide driver details for speeding

[Openlaw15]

Re: Court summons - Failure to provide driver details for speeding

Thanks for your reply openlaw15.

To be honest i don't know why they are saying he failed to provide his his details. I posted them for him, The only thing i can think is either it has got lost on the post or it has been misplaced their end (i obviously don't know how they handle post when they receive it).

All i can tell you by the police witness statement (which has incorrect dates, Please see original post for this) attached to the court paperwork states "on 18th January the records held at the collaborated cameras, tickets and collisions unit were checked, which showed that a reply has not been received that has fulfilled the obligations under section 172 of the road traffic act 1988"

As previously mentioned, I posted the letter but i have no proof, Only a text message i sent my partner telling him "i posted your letter for you" but it doesn't say it was to do with the speeding. He never has to send letters which is why i'm 100% sure the text was relating to this, But how can i prove it?

If he is only issued points for the speeding he will be fine, But if he is found guilty of failure to disclose driver details they will give him an additional 6 points, which with the 3 he has and the 3 he will receive for speeding will take him to 12 points.

He works for a maintenance company, He has to drive mainly around Central London but other areas too, there is no way he can do the job without a licence, yesterday for example he was in Stevenage, Then St. James then had to travel to Wandsworth.

Hopefully i have answered your queries, Please let me know if you need me to clarify anything? I'm trying not to worry but i've had other medical problems & just when things start to look up for us something like this lands on our doorstep. Unfortunately we seem to be the unlucky type were nothing ever goes way

Thanks again

It is a criminal offence if the identity of driver has been withheld, so this is the s.172 offence. Has he refused to prove who he is when the police requested the information? The requested information could have been requested on the NIP sent to your address or on separate letter etc.

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The text is not proof it will be his word he sent it .

Stop worrying whatever happens happens try to defend it and stop stressing its not worth it

Texts will be submitted under the hearsay rules for Crim. procedure.

[worriedpartner2015]

Re: Court summons - Failure to provide driver details for speeding

It's most certainly right for the " offender" and his partner to know exactly what could happen , they need to be
fully aware not approaching this in the dark!!

nem

I wish i could approach this in the dark, but I've read up on the fines etc. This is what i'm hopefully trying to avoid, Especially as apart from the speeding offence he has done nothing wrong.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Court summons - Failure to provide driver details for speeding

I wish i could approach this in the dark, but I've read up on the fines etc. This is what i'm hopefully trying to avoid, Especially as apart from the speeding offence he has done nothing wrong.

s.172 - 6 penalty points and up to £1000 fine. This is why you should challenge it more than anything else. He has no choice but to admit the speeding. He could get at least 3 point alone for speeding ..so potentially 9 or more.

[worriedpartner2015]

Re: Court summons - Failure to provide driver details for speeding

It is a criminal offence if the identity of driver has been withheld, so this is the s.172 offence. Has he refused to prove who he is when the police requested the information? The requested information could have been requested on the NIP sent to your address or on separate letter etc.


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Texts will be submitted under the hearsay rules for Crim. procedure.

There has been no separate letter, As the whole letter has to be sent back i took a photocopy of the front sheet (which gives details on the speeding offence), The section to fill out is on the back of the front page.

He filled out the back section signing that he was the driver at the time, He was and still is prepared to admit that he was speeding. But it's the fact they are saying he hasn't provided details when i know he has because i posted the letter for him.

Texts will be submitted under the hearsay rules for Crim. procedure
Does this mean i can use the text message as proof?

[worriedpartner2015]

Re: Court summons - Failure to provide driver details for speeding

The text is not proof it will be his word he sent it .

Stop worrying whatever happens happens try to defend it and stop stressing its not worth it

Thank you for trying to reassure me, Unfortunately i'm a natural worrier, I try not to think about it but the more i do the more i worry, Its that vicious circle.
Would it help if i went with him? I know the court may argue your his partner blah blah blah, but i have quiet a good memory and can tell them what i did in the morning leading upto it, I even remember buying a book of stamps to post it, How sad is that lol

[Openlaw15]

Re: Court summons - Failure to provide driver details for speeding

There has been no separate letter, As the whole letter has to be sent back i took a photocopy of the front sheet (which gives details on the speeding offence), The section to fill out is on the back of the front page.

He filled out the back section signing that he was the driver at the time, He was and still is prepared to admit that he was speeding. But it's the fact they are saying he hasn't provided details when i know he has because i posted the letter for him.

Texts will be submitted under the hearsay rules for Crim. procedure
Does this mean i can use the text message as proof?

You need to ask for permission first I believe. The Magistrates is not as strict as the Crown Court so if your partner is defending himself, they will help him with procedure.

[worriedpartner2015]

Re: Court summons - Failure to provide driver details for speeding

There are two potential offences, speeding and failure to identify. It's not the speeding which concerns me. If he was speeding, he has no choice other than plea guilty to the offence of speeding. It's the failure to identify that is the more serious issue. If he pleads guilty to speeding, there will be no trial (where the prosecution normally proves the speeding offence), meaning he may get some leniency than if he pleaded not guilty when he was in fact guilty, ie waste's court's time....looks bad etc). He has mitigation (ie family circumstances, driving his livelihood) so he's unlikely to lose his licence for that alone.

If the prosecution tried to join both speeding and failure to identify in the same proceedings, it could be a problem. This is why he needs to have two separate proceedings in my view, one to plead guilty, ie the speeding, and a different one to plead 'not guilty' for a failure to identify. It's the failure to identify, which he is not guilty of so a not guilty plea would mean the prosecute must prove the offence (crim. liability). Unlike civil liability the burden on the courts is much stronger. i think in his circumstances if you can find the right proof especially that he should ask for a hearing for count 2 (ie failure to identify).

Sorry have only just noticed this one.

He will quiet happily admit to speeding, Its the other one i'm worried about.
As far as i'm aware they are both in the same proceedings, How do we get two separate proceedings? He has to send his plea paperwork back to the court i know when he pleads not guilty to the failure to identify he will need to attend court, when he pleads guilty for speeding on the paperwork would they just send him the fine and give him the points or would it still have to go to court for them to do this?

[Openlaw15]

Re: Court summons - Failure to provide driver details for speeding

Thank you for trying to reassure me, Unfortunately i'm a natural worrier, I try not to think about it but the more i do the more i worry, Its that vicious circle.
Would it help if i went with him? I know the court may argue your his partner blah blah blah, but i have quiet a good memory and can tell them what i did in the morning leading upto it, I even remember buying a book of stamps to post it, How sad is that lol

The time, pedestrians, road conditions are important when was he driving at 39mph in 30 mph limit. Can you provide some details, ie was light, school time, school area very close, pedestrians, ie busy with people on the sidewalk? The weather, was it light or dark, good visibility, or icy roads etc?

[worriedpartner2015]

Re: Court summons - Failure to provide driver details for speeding

You need to ask for permission first I believe. The Magistrates is not as strict as the Crown Court so if your partner is defending himself, they will help him with procedure.

There is a section that he has to fill in if he is pleading not guilty, so suppose he could put it in there and see if they say anything. He also has the option to call a witness, If they let me i will quiet happily go in there.

On a separate note, I doubt it, but will it help that the witness statement from the police says he was sent both the original NIP & the reminder on the same date? This is obviously wrong & it's a signed statement sent to the court, Surely it doesn't make them look good, But at the same time i guess we need to make sure we don't p**s them off by pointing out errors.

[worriedpartner2015]

Re: Court summons - Failure to provide driver details for speeding

The time, pedestrians, road conditions are important when was he driving at 39mph in 30 mph limit. Can you provide some details, ie was light, school time, school area very close, pedestrians, ie busy with people on the sidewalk? The weather, was it light or dark, good visibility, or icy roads etc?

It was at 00:26, It was mid September. I can only assume the roads would be quiet and weather wise more than likely would have been dry but can't guarantee, A quick glance on good old google shows it was approx highs of 19 and lowest temp of 4 degrees.
He is also annoyed with himself as he knows the cameras are there & i am remember him saying at the time he didn't remember seeing them flash. He is hoping the camera's were faulty as about a week later they were covered over and were out of use for a little while before replacing them with newer ones, Slim chance i told him but If only there was some way finding out, how easy all of this could go away lol

[Openlaw15]

Re: Court summons - Failure to provide driver details for speeding

There is a section that he has to fill in if he is pleading not guilty, so suppose he could put it in there and see if they say anything. He also has the option to call a witness, If they let me i will quiet happily go in there.

On a separate note, I doubt it, but will it help that the witness statement from the police says he was sent both the original NIP & the reminder on the same date? This is obviously wrong & it's a signed statement sent to the court, Surely it doesn't make them look good, But at the same time i guess we need to make sure we don't p**s them off by pointing out errors.

When cross-examining (examining the person by their witness statement)... tread carefully. 'Is it ok to approach the witness.' Ask questions to witness, but remember you're not a lawyer so don't act like one. Be respectful, calm, but ask the witnesses questions about evidence if the evidence is in question. Start by asking how long they have been in their role perhaps, ie you're looking to see whether they're experienced. If the witness is a police officer, does he/ she have a rank? You're looking for areas of incompetence - ie someone experienced shouldn't make a basic error. Don't make statements like 'Isn't it true...' Rephrase, can you tell me....' Only ask questions if you know it's likely within their area of responsibility. 'What type of situation would you expect a s.172 to occur? Be courteous and polite, say 'thank you' etc. 'Can you please give me an example.' 'Would you say, in your experience as long serving officer, that these things that you have mentioned are the same in my situation?' The prosecution may say, this is irrelevant.' You could ask permission to approach the Magistrate to explain your reasoning as to why it is relevant.. rather than shouting across the court room.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Court summons - Failure to provide driver details for speeding

It was at 00:26, It was mid September. I can only assume the roads would be quiet and weather wise more than likely would have been dry but can't guarantee, A quick glance on good old google shows it was approx highs of 19 and lowest temp of 4 degrees.
He is also annoyed with himself as he knows the cameras are there & i am remember him saying at the time he didn't remember seeing them flash. He is hoping the camera's were faulty as about a week later they were covered over and were out of use for a little while before replacing them with newer ones, Slim chance i told him but If only there was some way finding out, how easy all of this could go away lol

Update

If he admits guilt is may be based on flimsy evidence at best. Once a guilty plea is made the potentially superficial evidence does not matter.

Infrared camera possibly.. but they're be rather expensive. How did they get his car's registration if it was dark....hmm street lighting perhaps. Show me the area on a Google map please. Give the address of the camera.. i can look it up on my Google Earth.

12 am - brilliant... most people are at home in bed so no real danger posed. Do not admit in court he knew the cameras were there unless asked by the prosecution. Hmm, this is interesting....a camera cannot take an image in the dark unless it has a flash otherwise the image would be pitch black at that time of night. I think he should ask for a disclosure of all the evidence, which apparently the prosecution must provide, then look at the evidence. If the evidence indicates watertight 'open and shut case' against him, then admit plea of guilty before the hearing. If he decides to go to trial and initially enters a plea guilty to speeding but then change his mind to 'not guilty' before the final verdict he can do this too, at any point in fact up until the judge/ magistrate gives his verdict, under the criminal procedure rules and criminal common law (case law).