Can A local authority be sued

[Achmed]

Since 2002 illegal devices have been placed/ put on the market.in a nutshell, trading standards all over the UK/Eire have accepted the certificates at face value they do so because they do not know how to.
A perfect example of this is trading standards in England they seize an IPL device, and ask for all documentation and the CE test certificate.
The certificate that was sent was forged, and trading standards accepted that forged certificate because like many can't verify the authenticity of the certificate, also the devices have performed medical and that has to be done by 3rd party testing.
In 2016 we contacted that testing facility, in a conference meeting with the head of the facility we explained what had gone on they revoked that certificate leaving these devices without any certification, market surveillance has passed us from pillar to post, and the person who started all t, his fraud is selling them under the radar.
Removing these devices would open a can of worms, they can't prosecute the directors involved because in court all would be exposed, and all the operator's manual have been signed on behalf of the company, it has to be signed by an individual.
These devices will interfere with the working of a device implanted like a heart pacer, so it goes on and people have treatments on illegal and unsafe devices, and people purchase these devices and the fraudster has impunity from prosecution.

[PallasAthena]

I assume this is about the same issue as your thread from 2 years ago, is that right? This appears to have been an ongoing matter for you for many years.

5 million illegal beauty/medical treatments UK - LegalBeagles Forum

Have you yet found a solicitor who has given you legal advice on this issue?

Is your primary concern about devices being sold to the public for home use or their use by private health/beauty clinics?

Obviously LAs can be sued if they have done something wrong but what basis would you personally have for suing them? Have you yourself (or a family member) suffered either personal injury or financial loss as a result of the IPL hair removal/beauty treatment machines you refer to?

You several times, here and in the previous thread, refer to yourself as 'we' - "In 2016 we contacted that testing facility, in a conference meeting with the head of the facility...". Who is 'we'? It suggests you are representing an organisation. Are you a rival manufacturer/seller of these products?

In a legal action what would you be asking the courts to do?

[Achmed]

I assume this is about the same issue as your thread from 2 years ago, is that right? This appears to have been an ongoing matter for you for many years.

5 million illegal beauty/medical treatments UK - LegalBeagles Forum

Have you yet found a solicitor who has given you legal advice on this issue?

Is your primary concern about devices being sold to the public for home use or their use by private health/beauty clinics?

Obviously LAs can be sued if they have done something wrong but what basis would you personally have for suing them? Have you yourself (or a family member) suffered either personal injury or financial loss as a result of the IPL hair removal/beauty treatment machines you refer to?

You several times, here and in the previous thread, refer to yourself as 'we' - "In 2016 we contacted that testing facility, in a conference meeting with the head of the facility...". Who is 'we'? It suggests you are representing an organisation. Are you a rival manufacturer/seller of these products?

In a legal action what would you be asking the courts to do?

We are now considering legal action i believe it's called a class action, our main concern is how inept trading standards have been.
The devices can be used at home or in salons only by reading MHRA guidelines on medical devices we found out how illegal they are, there was never a 3rd party testing for medical that made all the devices illegal, it moved them from self-certified to medical.
That's all the numerous trading standards had to do was contact the testing facility, and ask are these devices legal, are they medical certified, and can one certificate be used on all of the 15 models and variants, the answer would have been NO.
The task of CE compliance and documentation was given to them by the EU, but a letter from a department within the EU was not very complimentary regarding our MS.
We invested in this company, seeing the person who persuaded us was a friend of 30-odd years, we left originally because of, devices going missing, money going missing, charging clients extortionately high prices, VAT fraud, and many other wrongdoings, what we did not know that the devices since 1998 have all been illegal.
We only found out when on a forum regarding CE compliance, and medical certification, soon as we found out we contacted all MS, with our names and who we were, that was in2016.
Clients contacted us to repair their devices, service and manufacture these devices, we told them the fact and never took a penny, if you have any questions let me know, and thanks i have a quotation to do for an extension.
i will reply to any question.

[Manxman]

So which local authority (or how many LAs) would you be suing?

Trading standards is a local function, not a national one. Would you be suing the LA where these items were imported?

What would be the grounds of your action? What losses have you suffered and why do you think Trading stndards are responsible for those losses?

[Achmed]

So which local authority (or how many LAs) would you be suing?

Trading standards is a local function, not a national one. Would you be suing the LA where these items were imported?

What would be the grounds of your action? What losses have you suffered and why do you think Trading stndards are responsible for those losses?

Many failed, but two stand out from the others the department of the BEIS i believe is responsible for trading standards so they might be the main target, has for trading standards all CE compliance establishing the veracity of the documentation is their task you contact the EU ask them, get it from the horse's mouth.
Trading standards failed and because of the enormity of the failings they did nothing, the devices are not imported and if they had been it still the task of useless trading standards to establish the veracity of the documentation, but can't because they are inept.
all people who purchased these devices have been lied to, and all treatments have been illegal devices perform illegal treatments.
I sent the original certificate out to 20 trading standards asking if this certificate cn be used on 15 different models and variants i had no reply.
Do you know a legal firm that deals with this, yes or no

[Manxman]

The BEIS no longer exists. Do you mean Department for Business and Trade?

Not that I think it matters as I don't think TS are answerable to any central governement department - the function sits within county councils at a local level, not at a national level.

TS will not routinely deal with enquiries from members of the public. The standard method of contacting them is via CAB who act as a conduit to TS, and even if issues are passed on to TS you won't necessarily get any feedback from them.

You've not made it clear if you are a consumer, a concerned friend, some sort of trade association or a competitor, but have you tried asking CAB if you can get a direct contact to your local TS? Failing that speak to your local county councillor and see if they can help open up a line of communication.

No I don't know a firm of solicitors who can help you, but you haven't really made it clear what it is that you want advice on. Do you want to sue TS/a local authority for damages or do you simply want to alert TS to breaches of consumer protection law? Your posts are not clear.


(PS - apart from approaching your local CAB or county councillor you could ask the chartered trading standards institute for advice. But note that they are just a sort of loose professional association - they have no responsibility for individual TS departments or how the TS function is executed. That is a local authority function. Contact us (tradingstandards.uk) )

[Manxman]

Looking at your previous thread you seem to be saying that there have been no injuries arising from the sale of this product - simply that the sale of the product itself is (or was) illegal.

So what remedy are you looking for by suing trading standards (ie a local authority)? What losses can you (whoever you are) claim, and who from?

If you are simply looking for a refund of the purcahse price you should be pursuing the seller, not TS. (Or - depending on timescales and method of payment - look at a s75 claim)

If you want some sort of court order requiring a local trading standards dept to enforce the law properly, that will cost you a lot of money and you won't find a no win no fee firm who are interested because there will be nothing in it for them

If you simply want to publicise this scam or scandal you'd be better off contacting a TV consumer programme like "Watchdog".**

Without knowing what you want to achieve it's difficult to advise. What you want to achieve simply might not be possible or it might be so costly for you that it simply isn't worth pursuing.


**Apparently it no longer exists. Try "Rip off Briain" or "Joe Lycett's got your back"

[PallasAthena]

We are now considering legal action i believe it's called a class action, our main concern is how inept trading standards have been.

Having read youur further responses to Manxman I also can't see what grounds you have taking action against anyone, nor what (legal) 'class' you might belong to that could bring a class action. The problem you will have with bringing a class action is that, as far as I can see from your posts, neither you nor anyone else has suffered any personal injury or financial loss from these products not being legal and being sold with fake certification.

If no-one has suffered injury or loss you have nothing to sue for, neither the sellers nor the TS who you believe should have prevented the sales have caused you personally any loss.

It is in any event possible that if you did suffer any loss or injury you would have been aware of it, or should have been aware of it, in 2016. If you have taken no legal action since then you may be out of time under the Limitations Act to start an action now. You would need to take specialist legal advice.

We invested in this company, seeing the person who persuaded us was a friend of 30-odd years, we left originally because of, devices going missing, money going missing, charging clients extortionately high prices, VAT fraud, and many other wrongdoings, what we did not know that the devices since 1998 have all been illegal.

We only found out when on a forum regarding CE compliance, and medical certification, soon as we found out we contacted all MS, with our names and who we were, that was in 2016.

Who are "MS"?

If you lost money because of the misconduct of the directors of a company you invested in did take legal action or get legal advice about the action you could take? Were you a victim of fraud by the compay &/or its directors?

As you keep referring to "we" I assume there are a number of people you represent who want action taken against the sellers of the illegal devices. Have you considered reporting the offence to the police? They probably won't do anything so have you also considered bringing a private prosecution?

After 7+ years working on this you must be very knowledgeable yourself about this specialist area of law so perhaps you could give me some guidance. Which part of the law gives Trading Standards the duty to investigate and act on the sale of illegal devices and fake certification? All the legal references I have seen refer to TS having the power to take action, not the duty.

The products are not imported according to your earlier post so manufactured here so I am unclear why post-Brexit this now has anything to do with the EU.

[Achmed]

Having read your further responses to Manxman I also can't see what grounds you have taken action against anyone, nor what (legal) 'class' you might belong to that could bring a class action. The problem you will have with bringing a class action is that, as far as I can see from your posts, neither you nor anyone else has suffered any personal injury or financial loss from these products not being legal and being sold with fake certification.

If no one has suffered injury or loss you have nothing to sue for, neither the sellers nor the TS who you believe should have prevented the sales have caused you personally any loss.

It is in any event possible that if you did suffer any loss or injury you would have been aware of it, or should have been aware of it, in 2016. If you have taken no legal action since then you may be out of time under the Limitations Act to start an action now. You would need to take specialist legal advice.



Who are "MS"?

If you lost money because of the misconduct of the directors of a company you invested in did take legal action or get legal advice about the action you could take? Were you a victim of fraud by the compay &/or its directors?

As you keep referring to "we" I assume there are a number of people you represent who want action taken against the sellers of the illegal devices. Have you considered reporting the offence to the police? They probably won't do anything so have you also considered bringing a private prosecution?

After 7+ years working on this you must be very knowledgeable yourself about this specialist area of law so perhaps you could give me some guidance. Which part of the law gives Trading Standards the duty to investigate and act on the sale of illegal devices and fake certification? All the legal references I have seen refer to TS having the power to take action, not the duty.

The products are not imported according to your earlier post so manufactured here so I am unclear why post-Brexit this now has anything to do with the EU.

There does not have to be any injury EU law says safe and compliant, to sell a device that is not compliant is breaking the law, the reply that i have from many inept trading standards is "Are they safe" even showing the devices that have caught fire did not result in a response from them.
All of the devices performed medical, with no medical certification totally illegal from a MHRA and EU regs on medical certification.
has for the police they will do nothing it would bring MHRA, trading standard, HSE and others into the spotlight, and seeing only 1 in 3000 fraud reported end in a conviction and jail term, also the cost to investigate this makes it a "no no from the police"
When the devices were put placed upon the market without medical certification and meeting all regs that is when it became illegal, any device placed put on the market without meeting the directives has been placed illegally, and has such performed illegal treatments "even if it did not harm anyone"
if the devices had only performed beauty there would have been no problem, but they performed medical, they advertised medical on the web, literature, advertising, and operator's manual" which has never been signed by an individual" it has always been signed on behalf of the company, also the devices clearly show thread veins, acne, vascular work, various other pigmentation treatments those are medical, that places the devices in medical.
any way we are going to find a firm that will represent those who have been sold these devices and those who had treatments on these devices.
its safe and compliant even the EU said that is wrong safe and compliant,
HSE not us, trading standards use is it safe, MHRA who said it was medical tell us try trading standards, in essence, all passing the buck. anyway, we are sure that we will find a law firm that will find a target with the number of victims, including a pharmaceutical company UK and Europe that is around twelve million.
thanks anyway you have your opinion i have mine, best of luck and leave it there, let hope no one has died because they came too close to the devices.
thanks and bye-bye.

[Achmed]

Having read youur further responses to Manxman I also can't see what grounds you have taking action against anyone, nor what (legal) 'class' you might belong to that could bring a class action. The problem you will have with bringing a class action is that, as far as I can see from your posts, neither you nor anyone else has suffered any personal injury or financial loss from these products not being legal and being sold with fake certification.

If no-one has suffered injury or loss you have nothing to sue for, neither the sellers nor the TS who you believe should have prevented the sales have caused you personally any loss.

It is in any event possible that if you did suffer any loss or injury you would have been aware of it, or should have been aware of it, in 2016. If you have taken no legal action since then you may be out of time under the Limitations Act to start an action now. You would need to take specialist legal advice.



Who are "MS"?

If you lost money because of the misconduct of the directors of a company you invested in did take legal action or get legal advice about the action you could take? Were you a victim of fraud by the compay &/or its directors?

As you keep referring to "we" I assume there are a number of people you represent who want action taken against the sellers of the illegal devices. Have you considered reporting the offence to the police? They probably won't do anything so have you also considered bringing a private prosecution?

After 7+ years working on this you must be very knowledgeable yourself about this specialist area of law so perhaps you could give me some guidance. Which part of the law gives Trading Standards the duty to investigate and act on the sale of illegal devices and fake certification? All the legal references I have seen refer to TS having the power to take action, not the duty.

The products are not imported according to your earlier post so manufactured here so I am unclear why post-Brexit this now has anything to do with the EU.

They failed to establish the veracity of the documentation a task given to market surveillance, even when we found out the facts that the only certificate had been revoked they did nothing, we pointed out the certificate was not for medical still ignored.

One trading standards seize one of the devices asks for CE certification and technical file to establish the veracity of the documents, gets sent a doctored technical file and is the only certificate which has always been accepted at face value.
Because trading standards like all trading standards accept the certification at face value return the illegal device back to the salon.
pisses me off when TS say is it safe, if you had been sold a car with fake VOSA fake MOT, and fake safety tests would it be ok for inept trading to teel you the standard "Has it broken down yet" or are there any issues with the car.
They do a trade for using margarine instead of butter, but ignore us when we reported this 7 8 years ago now, it's gone too far for useless market surveillance to act now, a cover-up is the best way.
odd when we asked them to contact INTERTECK so they can find out the facts they dont do that, wonder why.

[Manxman]

Achmed - You haven't really answered any of the points put to you.

I think your labouring under a misapprehension as to what "suing" somebody means and what "illegal" means.

When something is "illegal" it means it is a criminal offence. Whether the sale of these items was illegal or not, I don't know. But if it was illegal that would be something for the appropriate law enforcement authority to enforce, not members of the general public like you(*). Whether that would be the police or trading standards or some other body in this case, I don't know.

When you are "suing" someone you are doing so in the civil court, not a criminal court. Usually you would be doing so in order to be awarded damages as compensation for some loss you have suffered - either a financial loss or some kind of physical injury. If you've suffered no loss, whether financial or physical injury, you have no claim.

Do you see? It doesn't matter that the sale of the items was illegal if you've suffered no harm. If you've suffered no harm you can't sue.

And even if you had suffered some sort of harm or loss, you would only be able to sue the people who had caused that harm. ie the people who had sold/distributed/imported/manufactured these items, not trading standards or a local authority.

Like PallasAthena I'd like to know where in law it says that Trading Standards have a duty to enforce(**) what you say the law is rather than just a power to do so. I'm not saying your wrong but I'd like to know what makes you think you are rght.

And you haven't explained who or what "MS" is.


(*) It is possible for private individuals to initiate a private prosecution under criminal law, but such a thing is very rare and very costly. You wouldn't get legal aid for it and you wouldn't find any NWNF lawyers interested as there'd be no money in it. And in private prosecutions the CPS have the power to take over and discontinue the process iif they think the prosecution is inappropriate. I don't think you'd get anywhere.

(**) If you think TS have a duty to act and you believe they are failing to do so, I suppose you could initiate court proceedings under some branch of administrative law to get a High Court order forcing TS to act, but agian that would be eye-wateringly expensive, no legal aid and NWNF lawyers would not be interested.

If you wanted to try a private prosecution or a High Court orderyou'd need specialist, paid for legal advice. You won't get it anywhere for free

[Achmed]

Achmed - You haven't really answered any of the points put to you.

I think your labouring under a misapprehension as to what "suing" somebody means and what "illegal" means.

When something is "illegal" it means it is a criminal offence. Whether the sale of these items was illegal or not, I don't know. But if it was illegal that would be something for the appropriate law enforcement authority to enforce, not members of the general public like you(*). Whether that would be the police or trading standards or some other body in this case, I don't know.

When you are "suing" someone you are doing so in the civil court, not a criminal court. Usually you would be doing so in order to be awarded damages as compensation for some loss you have suffered - either a financial loss or some kind of physical injury. If you've suffered no loss, whether financial or physical injury, you have no claim.

Do you see? It doesn't matter that the sale of the items was illegal if you've suffered no harm. If you've suffered no harm you can't sue.

And even if you had suffered some sort of harm or loss, you would only be able to sue the people who had caused that harm. ie the people who had sold/distributed/imported/manufactured these items, not trading standards or a local authority.

Like PallasAthena I'd like to know where in law it says that Trading Standards have a duty to enforce(**) what you say the law is rather than just a power to do so. I'm not saying your wrong but I'd like to know what makes you think you are rght.

And you haven't explained who or what "MS" is.


(*) It is possible for private individuals to initiate a private prosecution under criminal law, but such a thing is very rare and very costly. You wouldn't get legal aid for it and you wouldn't find any NWNF lawyers interested as there'd be no money in it. And in private prosecutions the CPS have the power to take over and discontinue the process iif they think the prosecution is inappropriate. I don't think you'd get anywhere.

(**) If you think TS have a duty to act and you believe they are failing to do so, I suppose you could initiate court proceedings under some branch of administrative law to get a High Court order forcing TS to act, but agian that would be eye-wateringly expensive, no legal aid and NWNF lawyers would not be interested.

If you wanted to try a private prosecution or a High Court orderyou'd need specialist, paid for legal advice. You won't get it anywhere for free

The certificates are forged illegal, the HSE informed us that our local trading standards have been informed, that was 8 years ago now, and police and CPS will do nothing because it exposes the failure of the MS market surveillance.
I pretended that i was going to purchase an IPL, and asked would you want a technical file and certificates of compliance to show one 1of the MS she said yes.
Perhaps you are right, we have refused to service, repair, manufacture and sell these devices, even part-time 3/4 day a week I would do £40,000.00 to £50,000.00 mostly cash, my wife tried to kill herself a few years back, we are nowhere
near exposing what has gone on, so screw morality and join the crooks.
And srew MHRA, HIW,Trading standards the lot i have had a tit full.
Two repairs, two full refurbishments, that's anything from £750/£1,500.00 like only fool and horses NO INCOME TAX NO VAT.
Thanks i have made my mind up join the crooks, 8 years of waste and i could have made £ 240,000.00, so 1st task to order all the parts and startr to make money and screw morality it hold you back.










335

[wales01man]

Can i ask a question 30 million a year ?

[Achmed]

Looking at your previous thread you seem to be saying that there have been no injuries arising from the sale of this product - simply that the sale of the product itself is (or was) illegal.

So what remedy are you looking for by suing trading standards (ie a local authority)? What losses can you (whoever you are) claim, and who from?

If you are simply looking for a refund of the purcahse price you should be pursuing the seller, not TS. (Or - depending on timescales and method of payment - look at a s75 claim)

If you want some sort of court order requiring a local trading standards dept to enforce the law properly, that will cost you a lot of money and you won't find a no win no fee firm who are interested because there will be nothing in it for them

If you simply want to publicise this scam or scandal you'd be better off contacting a TV consumer programme like "Watchdog".**

Without knowing what you want to achieve it's difficult to advise. What you want to achieve simply might not be possible or it might be so costly for you that it simply isn't worth pursuing.


**Apparently it no longer exists. Try "Rip off Briain" or "Joe Lycett's got your back"

So basically trading standards that failed to do their job, all CE compliance like CE conformity has to be shown along with the technical file, so in essence nothing at all can be done about trading standards' inability to establish the veracity of the documents.
Police do nothing, insolvency agency done nothing, companies house done nothing, all the regional trading standards had been informed that the devices have all been illegal, HSE offices had been informed that they have a generic fault that made them go up in flames.
So i dont have the money to take the crooks to court, and the system does FA.
The EU said the devices are illegal but say that it has to be passed to the inept market surveillance, forged certificates "is that ok" informed by HSE that our local trading standards where looking into the use of fake/forged certificates.
So crooks keep on manufacturing, police, MHRA, trading standards, HSE, and Health Inspectorate of Wales all get away with it, and nothing gets done, that leaves me with one option to go back to manufacturing. And selling these devices.

[Achmed]

The certificates are forged illegal, the HSE informed us that our local trading standards have been informed, that was 8 years ago now, and police and CPS will do nothing because it exposes the failure of the MS market surveillance.
I pretended that i was going to purchase an IPL, and asked would you want a technical file and certificates of compliance to show one 1of the MS she said yes.
Perhaps you are right, we have refused to service, repair, manufacture and sell these devices, even part-time 3/4 day a week I would do £40,000.00 to £50,000.00 mostly cash, my wife tried to kill herself a few years back, we are nowhere
near exposing what has gone on, so screw morality and join the crooks.
And srew MHRA, HIW,Trading standards the lot i have had a tit full.
Two repairs, two full refurbishments, that's anything from £750/£1,500.00 like only fool and horses NO INCOME TAX NO VAT.
Thanks i have made my mind up join the crooks, 8 years of waste and i could have made £ 240,000.00, so 1st task to order all the parts and startr to make money and screw morality it hold you back.










335

They have a duty to remove illegal devices, the devices are not medical, and the salons have lied too, you can perform medical on a non medical devices that came from the MHRA, 8 years on they still perform medica,
The EU are correct of all market surveillance we have the most complaints.