Property / Neighbour dispute

[MargyG]

I am an owner occupier of a 1st floor flat. The owner of the flat below mine is not the occupier, their flat is occupied on a full time basis by a tenant. Last Autumn (Sept. 2017) I was informed there was a leak from my bathroom into the bathroom of the flat below mine, they left a note on my door. I responded immediately by phone to the owner. My plumber re sealed my shower tray and the owner of the other property wrote to express gratitude for my prompt action. In January 2018 the owner wrote asking me to pay £250 to her as this was the excess on their insurance claim. We have communicated regarding this excess, I have asked for evidence of their claim and received no evidence. They asked me to pay them, and then their painter / decorator and subsequently to them as they say they have now paid him. I am disputing that I should pay as they have not provided any evidence of a claim or any evidence of the damage. The buildings insurance for the block is a communal policy and I have not received any communication from the insurer that a claim has been made against my property. They have said if I do not pay they will take me to the small claims court. I genuinely don't think I should be liable, I feel from their communication that are suggesting that damage had been caused before I was informed, which I don't feel I can be responsible for as they could have acted sooner and thus have failed to prevent the extent of any damage. Any thoughts or suggestions would be welcome as I want to be a fair neighbour and living in a flat I would want to be treated fairly if I was in their position. Thank you

[jaguarsuk]

I am an owner occupier of a 1st floor flat. The owner of the flat below mine is not the occupier, their flat is occupied on a full time basis by a tenant. Last Autumn (Sept. 2017) I was informed there was a leak from my bathroom into the bathroom of the flat below mine, they left a note on my door. I responded immediately by phone to the owner. My plumber re sealed my shower tray and the owner of the other property wrote to express gratitude for my prompt action. In January 2018 the owner wrote asking me to pay £250 to her as this was the excess on their insurance claim. We have communicated regarding this excess, I have asked for evidence of their claim and received no evidence. They asked me to pay them, and then their painter / decorator and subsequently to them as they say they have now paid him. I am disputing that I should pay as they have not provided any evidence of a claim or any evidence of the damage. The buildings insurance for the block is a communal policy and I have not received any communication from the insurer that a claim has been made against my property. They have said if I do not pay they will take me to the small claims court. I genuinely don't think I should be liable, I feel from their communication that are suggesting that damage had been caused before I was informed, which I don't feel I can be responsible for as they could have acted sooner and thus have failed to prevent the extent of any damage. Any thoughts or suggestions would be welcome as I want to be a fair neighbour and living in a flat I would want to be treated fairly if I was in their position. Thank you

Okay, I think you need to write to them and express that it is of course their right to commence a claim in the county court if there is a cause of action to so, however that they will also be required to evidence their loss to be successful.

As such, it might be better that they evidence their loss as requested and to allow you to fully consider your position with regards the alleged sum claimed.

Also, if they have made claim on the insurance policy the amount paid by the insurer to them is to pay the Painter/Decorator and as such you are not liable to repay them any sum they have paid the Painter/Decorator as they have suffered no loss.

You say the policy is communal, so have you looked at the policy to see if £250 is indeed the excess?

[MargyG]

Thank you that's really helpful, I will write to them as you have suggested, I had thought of asking them for the date of the claim & the reference number and for photographs if they have any, I will post again when I have more info / news

[jaguarsuk]

Thank you that's really helpful, I will write to them as you have suggested, I had thought of asking them for the date of the claim & the reference number and for photographs if they have any, I will post again when I have more info / news

No problem at all, they can't just say you owe us and be expected to be paid. They need to evidence what you owe.

If they do issue a claim come back here and advice can be given how to deal with that too.

Hopefully they'll just give you the proof you need, you can settle what you owe and life can return to normal.

[Diana M]

I am an owner occupier of a 1st floor flat. The owner of the flat below mine is not the occupier, their flat is occupied on a full time basis by a tenant. Last Autumn (Sept. 2017) I was informed there was a leak from my bathroom into the bathroom of the flat below mine . . . . I responded immediately by phone to the owner.

. . . In January 2018 the owner wrote asking me to pay £250 to her as this was the excess on their insurance claim. We have communicated regarding this excess . . .

The buildings insurance for the block is a communal policy and I have not received any communication from the insurer that a claim has been made against my property.

Since this is a leasehold property/flat the Freeholder will be responsible for the Buildings Insurance (hence the reference to communal policy).

Normally any excess charged by an insurer for a claim would be invoiced to the Freeholder (the policy holder) who would recover the cost from all of the lessees pro rata through the Service Charges according to the lease terms.

Is there a Managing Agent or does the Freeholder arrange the block policy themselves and then 'claim' it back from the lessees through the Service Charges?

Whatever the arrangement you should contact the Freeholder (or the managing Agent if one exists) and discuss this with them direct.

It's possible that the Freeholder may have erroneously charged the other lessee the £250 excess, but without knowing the terms of the lease it's hard to comment. 'Escape of Water' cover nearly always carries an excess.

Or there never was an insurance claim or a claim which was rejected which you can check with the policy provider.

Contact your Freeholder and insurer first before you get into any battle with your fellow lessee.

Di

(PS do you live in Scotland where Freehold/Leasehold issues may be slightly different?)

[MargyG]

Thank you for taking the time to respond, I'm very grateful and will contact the managing agent, I live in England, KR M

[MargyG]

Good Morning, I have received the following from my block management company,
'the policy excess is £250 which s payable by the party making the claim but they may in turn pursue another party' (me) 'to reimburse them for all or part of that excess amount if they feel that the other party is at fault or has caused the loss.'

I would appreciate your thoughts / opinions

[jaguarsuk]

Good Morning, I have received the following from my block management company,
'the policy excess is £250 which s payable by the party making the claim but they may in turn pursue another party' (me) 'to reimburse them for all or part of that excess amount if they feel that the other party is at fault or has caused the loss.'

I would appreciate your thoughts / opinions

That seems pretty straight forward and on the face of it what the other person is doing. However, they need to show they paid the excess otherwise they have suffered no loss.

The insurance payout paying the painter/decorator still stands, they have suffered no loss there.

[MargyG]

That's a good point as they haven't provided any evidence of the claim or their excess payment, something to work on Thank you

[jaguarsuk]

That's a good point as they haven't provided any evidence of the claim or their excess payment, something to work on Thank you

Exactly, it's not that you are refusing to pay them just that you want to see that they have paid the excess and once you can see then you will reimburse them for it. If they claim via court they will have to provide this proof to win a claim, so why not provide it now and save having to pay a £25 fee to issue a claim along with the further time and effort.

[Diana M]

I have received the following from my block management company,
'the policy excess is £250 which s payable by the party making the claim but they may in turn pursue another party' (me) 'to reimburse them for all or part of that excess amount if they feel that the other party is at fault or has caused the loss.'

You need to ask the Managing Agent to provide evidence of their statement since normally the buildings insurance policy is in the name of the Freeholder (see my post # 5) and any associated costs can only be recovered from the lessees under the terms of their lease.

Some Managing Agents like to have their own ‘policies’ on these things which may not be supported by the lease terms.

Ask them to refer you to the specific term in your lease which allows another lessee to make a claim from you for any excess, as opposed to the excess being added to the Service Charge budget paid by all the lessees according to the % defined in the individual leases.

Ask them to provide you with a copy of the claim made to the insurers and full details of the payout specifically to whom it was paid (the other lessee or their contractors direct). They would have managed this claim (otherwise what’s the point of employing a Managing Agent!).

If they are saying you were responsible for the damage caused to the other property then why didn’t the insurer pursue you direct to mitigate the loss which would be normal? That’s a rhetorical question.

Who says you were responsible? Was this a sudden ‘escape of water’ or has there been a previous issue with water leaking from your shower?

The Managing Agent is responsible for this insurance claim Issue, so they should be dealing with you direct.

Di

[MargyG]

Thank you again and I will contact the Managing Agent today to make those enquiries.
To answer your question, it was a one off event, it seems the shower seal had failed and water had eventually dripped through into their bathroom which is directly below mine. It wasn't a sudden major leak. My thoughts are that they informed me when their tenant raised the issue with them which could have been sometime after the initial signs of water. They said there was considerable damage with black mould around the top of their bathroom wall & ceiling and that the mould was also on their hall ceiling. This makes me think that they did not do everything possible to prevent the extent of any damage as I acted immediately I was informed and don't feel it's reasonable to be held responsible for any delays in them notifying me, maybe the tenant left it a while before reporting it to them, or they may have discovered it on a visit. I have observed that their flat is poorly ventilated, e.g. The windows are always shut with curtains drawn closed and there is condensation on the windows. This (in my mind) would have contributed to a build up of mould during the winter. it makes me think that they may have had to undertake a bigger re-dec. than would have been necessary if the problem had not accumulated. I don't want to be unfair or unreasonable as living in my own flat I would want my neighbours to treat me fairly if it were in my flat.

[MargyG]

Di,
The Managing Agent has confirmed that they own the freehold.

they also provided the following information

With regard to a specific Lease clause, the Leases make no direct reference as to how the excess on a claim should be dealt with. It states that the Freeholder must ensure that the building is adequately insured and includes a list of risks which the policy must insure against and also states that the premium can be recovered via the service charge. As the Lease does not state how the excess should be dealt with then it is the decision of the freeholder (*** Leasehold Management) as to how the excess is managed. It is their view that in the event of a flat-to-flat leak then the excess is payable by the flat who makes the claim. It is then down to that flat to pursue another party if they feel that the party was at fault for the damage.

The claim was not made through us but rather directly with the insurer’s claim handler: ******** & Co., so we do not have this information to hand. Therefore I recommend that you contact ******** & Co. to obtain the information. The details are as follows:

I wonder Di if you have a view for me to consider, I am very grateful for your input
M

[MargyG]

Please could I have a but more input particularly on posts #11 #12 #13, I really appreciate the suggestions so far and have acted to gain more info, I would like to have some ideas of my next course of action Many Thanks

[Diana M]

the Leases make no direct reference as to how the excess on a claim should be dealt with. It states that the Freeholder must ensure that the building is adequately insured and includes a list of risks which the policy must insure against and also states that the premium can be recovered via the service charge. As the Lease does not state how the excess should be dealt with then it is the decision of the freeholder (*** Leasehold Management) as to how the excess is managed. It is their view that in the event of a flat-to-flat leak then the excess is payable by the flat who makes the claim. It is then down to that flat to pursue another party if they feel that the party was at fault for the damage.

The Freeholder (who is also the Managing Agent) has confirmed that there is nothing in your lease which specifically says you alone are liable for the cost of the buildings insurance excess charge.

They go on to say that in the absence of any lease term they (the Freeholder) will decide how it should be paid. They have decided that the party which was "at fault" for the damage should be pursued for the excess by the flat owner who suffered the damage.

It's now up to you whether you accept their arbitrary decision (that you should pay) or challenge it.

However who says you were at fault? That hasn't yet been established.

Did the insurers appoint a Loss Adjuster to visit the property to decide whether the damage was a peril covered by the policy (such as a flood/escape of water) or whether it was a maintenance issue (an ongoing leak which was visible a while ago but ignored so mould developed and spread to the hall) which was discover after the Landlord or their agent visited the property to make an inspection or carry out an inventory check-in or check-out ?

You say the property is tenanted, and most tenancy agreements include a clause making the tenant responsible for reporting any maintenance issues to the Landlord promptly or they could be liable for further damage caused by the delay (in reporting it). If the tenants knew but failed to report it then the Landlord or their agent could attempt to make them liable for the loss.

This happened to me recently (I'm a Landlord amongst other things) and I deducted the cost of the damage from my Tenants' deposit which they fully accepted as reasonable because the extra damage could have been avoided if I had been made aware of the initial problem (the cause) on Day 1.

You're at the research stage so why not let your neighbour/lessee know that you would like further information before you decide whether or not you have any liability.

You can also ask the insurers (although it seems the claim may have been handled by an intermediary) for full details of the claim which was submitted. I wouldn't go into any detail in case it makes them suspicious that the claim may have been dubious which could open a whole new can of worms.

(I'm replying in response to your PM because this forum does not allow my firm to give advice by PM but I can be contacted by email which is in my signature at the bottom of each post.)

Di