Alcoholism discussion

[wales01man]

Re: Alcoholism discussion

All well and good reading and writing about addictions but to experience someones problems are much more important than words thats real life

[Fred]

Re: Alcoholism discussion

I saw it directly with my dear brother it tore his family apart & our relationship, I was holding his hand when he passed away, such a sad & lonely death. I had been drinking heavily during my partner's illness & I know what it is to be used to the damned stuff, luckily, I do not possess the "addictive gene" it does not discriminate between class or sex.

It's a horrible illness & so, so preventable. People are generally "out of themselves" when they are doing this to their bodies, what do you say to grown man/woman ? you just wish they will seek help & that is the best one can hope for.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Alcoholism discussion

I saw it directly with my dear brother it tore his family apart & our relationship, I was holding his hand when he passed away, such a sad & lonely death. I had been drinking heavily during my partner's illness & I know what it is to be used to the damned stuff, luckily, I do not possess the "addictive gene" it does not discriminate between class or sex.

It's a horrible illness & so, so preventable. People are generally "out of themselves" when they are doing this to their bodies, what do you say to grown man/woman ? you just wish they will seek help & that is the best one can hope for.

Sorry to hear that Fred, addiction of any form whether an alcoholic dependency or anything else is horrendous for the affected family, not just the person who's addicted to the substance.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Alcoholism discussion

Alcoholism nay by some be called a disease strange that you need money to buy this disease

When the term 'disease' is used it means more of a mental health 'medical condition' so requires medicine, rather than an incurable disease like Aids etc. Disease likely refers in this sense after the problems occurred. Anxiety, depression, bi polar etc may be medical conditions and therefore diseases if the symptoms are sufficient for a medical diagnosis. Post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) ie where soldiers are so affected from their war experience when they come home. Trauma is likely affective after the event but not necessarily during it, ie post (after). Trauma just means in shock - but trauma effect will likely kick in later (post) when the person is not in the threatened situation. So trauma may amount to a disease if the symptoms persist. So, it's not about consuming the drink that makes it a disease it's whether the person is affected to the extent that they become addicted.

[Kati]

Re: Alcoholism discussion

When the term 'disease' is used it means more of a mental health 'medical condition' so requires medicine, rather than an incurable disease like Aids etc.

Have to butt in here ... while Alcoholism is referred to in the main as a disease, there is no need (in a lot of cases) for medication. Take my mother for example - she was diagnosed alcoholic three years ago and went "cold turkey" ... no pills, no counselling, nothing. She has not touched alcohol now in over 60 months

[Openlaw15]

Re: Alcoholism discussion

Have to butt in here ... while Alcoholism is referred to in the main as a disease, there is no need (in a lot of cases) for medication. Take my mother for example - she was diagnosed alcoholic three years ago and went "cold turkey" ... no pills, no counselling, nothing. She has not touched alcohol now in over 60 months

Congratulations to your mum Kati, she must be incredibly independent minded to have done that, no doubt with lots of family support. Some people are born with addictive personalities as not everyone who drinks or takes drugs becomes an 'addict.' Let me redefine that. Some people are born with not a gene that causes drug or alcohol dependency - but a gene that could influence or develop addictive behaviour where they're in the wrong circumstances, ie pressured environments such as family or work problems etc.

[des8]

Re: Alcoholism discussion

Each poster is oversimplifying the problems of addiction, whether it be to alcohol (as per Wales) or some other drug, or some form of behaviour.
OL posts that "some people are born with addictive personalities" and goes on to explain what he means in a dozen or so words.
That is only one THEORY to explain addiction among many eg Metabolic,Genetic, adaption, conditioning.
And to be clear, I am not saying that any of those statements are wrong, but just they are a single view of a very complex situation.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Alcoholism discussion

Each poster is oversimplifying the problems of addiction, whether it be to alcohol (as per Wales) or some other drug, or some form of behaviour.
OL posts that "some people are born with addictive personalities" and goes on to explain what he means in a dozen or so words.
That is only one THEORY to explain addiction among many eg Metabolic,Genetic, adaption, conditioning.
And to be clear, I am not saying that any of those statements are wrong, but just they are a single view of a very complex situation.

Yep it's just easier to say born with or develop a condition than get into the evolution and micro biology variables. We could get into real technical stuff but it's not helpful. It's complicated I agree.

[JulieM]

Re: Alcoholism discussion

The concept of addictive personality is indeed controversial and not all experts use the term at all.
There seem to be many reasons why people turn to alcohol, tobacco or drugs . The original post in this thread was very far from a true reflection of many alcoholics just as the perception of drug addicts is often different from the truth.

As far as I can see the only true academic source on here is DSM V although the WHO definitions could be called that.

Openlaw , you say you wrote an essay on addiction during your studies, with all due respect that is not an academic source, it s just another undergraduate essay. If it had been published and peer reviewed you could then call it an academic source.

Kati, I am extremely pleased that your Mum has been alcohol free for 60 months it is great credit to her. We all know people who can wake up one day and decide not to smoke and others who attempt many times to quit.
Any addiction has chemical and emotional characteristics be that Neuro transmitters in the brain or the cigarette to give the frazzled mother five minutes peace from an otherwise stressful life.

walesman , I am truly sorry for your experience but addiction is far far more complex than you seem to think.
People commit crime to fund addictions or go without other necessities like food or even a home.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Alcoholism discussion

The concept of addictive personality is indeed controversial and not all experts use the term at all.
There seem to be many reasons why people turn to alcohol, tobacco or drugs . The original post in this thread was very far from a true reflection of many alcoholics just as the perception of drug addicts is often different from the truth.

As far as I can see the only true academic source on here is DSM V although the WHO definitions could be called that.

Openlaw , you say you wrote an essay on addiction during your studies, with all due respect that is not an academic source, it s just another undergraduate essay. If it had been published and peer reviewed you could then call it an academic source.

Kati, I am extremely pleased that your Mum has been alcohol free for 60 months it is great credit to her. We all know people who can wake up one day and decide not to smoke and others who attempt many times to quit.
Any addiction has chemical and emotional characteristics be that Neuro transmitters in the brain or the cigarette to give the frazzled mother five minutes peace from an otherwise stressful life.

walesman , I am truly sorry for your experience but addiction is far far more complex than you seem to think.
People commit crime to fund addictions or go without other necessities like food or even a home.

I don't need to be peer reviewed to hold an opinion on the subject matter I studied. The DSV or ICD 10 equivalent are not academic sources, they're sources for medical professionals, usually psychiatrists. Academic sources if we're being pedantic, would be peer reviewed papers or articles on the subject matter. Regardless, I still studied addiction at university, which in my view provides self the right to have a relevant opinion. I know who the hypothetical expert is likely to be furthermore given I studied relevant law, ie knowing the law of medical negligence equips self with knowledge of the relevant hypothetical professionals - ie the reasonable medical professional such as a psychiatrist producing an article on addiction is likely the most authorative. If it is more genetically based research into alcohol the professional would be a bio chemist probably.

[des8]

Re: Alcoholism discussion

No problems with you having a view OL, or even an opinion.
A university education is not a pre-requisite for having an opinion, and it is not necessary to keep reminding us.
However your posting gave the impression of being from an academic paper.
You now tell us it was from one of your essays, and on closer examination it seems to be a regurgitation (or series) of quotations.
Your original description of an alcoholic seemed to be somewhat stereotypical, and from someone who has "studied" addiction your comments were very simplistic.

Anyway, as a forum aimed at "guarding consumer rights" I wonder if this is the right place in which to discuss complex medical conditions such as alcoholism and addiction?

[PAWS]

Re: Alcoholism discussion

My opinions are based on having family members (parent and brother) who were alcoholics and discussing the subject at length in a social environment with a psychiatrist based at the Priory Manchester and a number of other psychologists and psychiatrists.
Theories and thesis are all very fine but when one is dealing with alcoholism,it’s causes and effects are just as varied as the people who suffer from it.


The opinion of the professionals I refer to above is that in the majority of cases they treat, Alcoholism is a symptom of another issue. Dependence on alcohol is no different to a dependence on pain killers or sleeping tablets used to numb the another discomfort be it physical or psychological. Therefore unless the catalyst is treated the return to ones favourite ‘cure’ will continue. As alcohol,like nicotine or indeed caffeine is an addictive substance and some of us are more likely to become addicted the consequences are obvious.
I came from a narrow minded society where anyone from a middle class background was described as an Alcoholic but those from less privileged homes were written off as obnoxious drunks. The more of these two groups I encounter the more I think the opposite is true!


It is fair to say that my in laws, who both drank at home every evening consumed as much if not more alcohol than the average street ‘meths man’ but as they sipped G&T or single malt from cut glass they were not considered alcoholics even though they had to have those drinks every evening or they got twitchy and could not sleep. When one lifted the highly polished, stay press, civilised veneer of their lives one discovered bitterness, hate and resentment. A person living in a doorway, who has lost everything drinking 5 star from a plastic bottle has more plausible reasons for needing his ‘medicine’.
The term Alcoholic is still laced with shame. The biggest problem I believe is how alcoholics are ‘diagnosed’. For many it is their nearest and dearest who often have had enough of the situation. I, as many others who have had to suffer the ‘passive effects’ of alcoholism, did believe it to be a selfish disease. Now I realise that the erratic, sullen or even violent behaviour are often symptoms of the underlying issues for which the person believes ‘alcohol is the best medicine’. For some friends and family it is also very hard to help the alcoholic when they are unable or unwilling to admit there is an underlying problem even if they are willing to admit a dependency on Alcohol.


Many years ago when I was at uni, I became familiar with an old man who lived in a doorway by an off licence. He sat with his legs curled beneath him and never looked up. He always had a bottle of fairly good booze clutched in a grubby old hand. I later discovered that this man had been tortured in a Japanese POW camp. His poor body was a mass of scars. He could never live a normal life and his family,having tried everything to help, eventually set up an account for him at the off licence and left him to it. It is easy for us to judge him as a worthless drunk but without today’s access to enlightened psychiatric theory and recognition of conditions such as PTSD this was his and his family’s best way of coping.
What I am trying to say is that to think there is a finite list of the degree, cause, effect or treatment of Alcoholism is, and always will be, impossible.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Alcoholism discussion

My opinions are based on having family members (parent and brother) who were alcoholics and discussing the subject at length in a social environment with a psychiatrist based at the Priory Manchester and a number of other psychologists and psychiatrists.
Theories and thesis are all very fine but when one is dealing with alcoholism,it’s causes and effects are just as varied as the people who suffer from it.


The opinion of the professionals I refer to above is that in the majority of cases they treat, Alcoholism is a symptom of another issue. Dependence on alcohol is no different to a dependence on pain killers or sleeping tablets used to numb the another discomfort be it physical or psychological. Therefore unless the catalyst is treated the return to ones favourite ‘cure’ will continue. As alcohol,like nicotine or indeed caffeine is an addictive substance and some of us are more likely to become addicted the consequences are obvious.
I came from a narrow minded society where anyone from a middle class background was described as an Alcoholic but those from less privileged homes were written off as obnoxious drunks. The more of these two groups I encounter the more I think the opposite is true!


It is fair to say that my in laws, who both drank at home every evening consumed as much if not more alcohol than the average street ‘meths man’ but as they sipped G&T or single malt from cut glass they were not considered alcoholics even though they had to have those drinks every evening or they got twitchy and could not sleep. When one lifted the highly polished, stay press, civilised veneer of their lives one discovered bitterness, hate and resentment. A person living in a doorway, who has lost everything drinking 5 star from a plastic bottle has more plausible reasons for needing his ‘medicine’.
The term Alcoholic is still laced with shame. The biggest problem I believe is how alcoholics are ‘diagnosed’. For many it is their nearest and dearest who often have had enough of the situation. I, as many others who have had to suffer the ‘passive effects’ of alcoholism, did believe it to be a selfish disease. Now I realise that the erratic, sullen or even violent behaviour are often symptoms of the underlying issues for which the person believes ‘alcohol is the best medicine’. For some friends and family it is also very hard to help the alcoholic when they are unable or unwilling to admit there is an underlying problem even if they are willing to admit a dependency on Alcohol.


Many years ago when I was at uni, I became familiar with an old man who lived in a doorway by an off licence. He sat with his legs curled beneath him and never looked up. He always had a bottle of fairly good booze clutched in a grubby old hand. I later discovered that this man had been tortured in a Japanese POW camp. His poor body was a mass of scars. He could never live a normal life and his family,having tried everything to help, eventually set up an account for him at the off licence and left him to it. It is easy for us to judge him as a worthless drunk but without today’s access to enlightened psychiatric theory and recognition of conditions such as PTSD this was his and his family’s best way of coping.
What I am trying to say is that to think there is a finite list of the degree, cause, effect or treatment of Alcoholism is, and always will be, impossible.

Alcohol crimes, ie driving under the influence are 'moral' crimes - there is such a stigma attached even if the DD were several years back. Alcoholism is also very much a moral term but it's the addiction factor which the medical professionals have regard for (the 'medical model', ie medical answer/ system for being an alcoholic). So, the drug industry treats the symptoms via medication, which the pharmaceutical industry itself is a multi billion pound industry, probably. It's seemingly more about controlling than cure. The salaries of GPs are phenomenally high, as are all medical professionals. There is just an incentive - in my view a financial one - for the continuation of the 'drug culture' (ie legal stimulant medication)/ medical model.

[wales01man]

Re: Alcoholism discussion

Drivers under the influence can kill and some have done is that Moral ? What is the salary of a GP Openlaw I know what my GP earns what does yours earn?

[Openlaw15]

Re: Alcoholism discussion

Drivers under the influence can kill and some have done is that Moral ? What is the salary of a GP Openlaw I know what my GP earns what does yours earn?

A GP earns about 100k plus private/ other work. It depends what letters they have after their name. A consultant would generally earn around 200k. By moral a mean the upper societies that draft criminal law and who provide a view of how life should be and where others do not fit this, it's a moral crime - ie a crime according to their high moral standards. There are lots of reasons why people drink alcohol - but since there is this stigma attached - in my view it's a moral society criminalising the persons who have problems. It's not just law that punishes persons it's the stigma attached.