Refugee Crisis

[wales01man]

Re: Refugee Crisis

In this Country we have a history of fighting for our freedom and that of others why should our young men Die for others to try and get here as Refugees when many are not.

When we have full employment zero housing need for ALL those who are here now then we can take in those who are genuine refugees

[enaid]

Re: Refugee Crisis

A migrant is a person who makes a conscious choice to leave their country to seek a better life elsewhere.

Refugees are forced to leave their country because they are at risk of, or have experienced persecution.

Yes we are dependent on the media as to how things are panning out, it is the only way we will get to know.
I do not hear the word 'refugee' much at all in the reporting but usually the people are described as 'migrants'
As I have said genuine refugees should be helped but there is no way of ever finding out genuine cases and am sure that all those who have forced once helpful countries to now close their borders (Belgium and now Croatia who only yesterday stated they would help) are not genuine cases at all.

[Berniethebolt]

Re: Refugee Crisis

Surely it is a sign of a civilised country that we care for those less fortunate than ourselves although I will concede that we have a long way to go before we care for those in need who live here. That of course is largely the choice of the government and IMO the foolish people who voted for them

[PAWS]

Re: Refugee Crisis

Every day we see film of young fit men in the majority trying to get into Europe as Refugees? from War torn countries some from Afghanistan.

Why are they not fighting for their freedom in the Country of their birth we sent soldiers to Afghanistan and Iraq to fight and DIE for their freedom why should not these fit and able young men stay and fight for a better Country free from war and violence I suspect many of them are of the same Religion as the warring factions use the Faith they have to destroy those who wish to destroy the Country

Wales, that is an excellent point and one that never entered my mind. I am totally for the UK taking in genuine refugees but your intelligent remark has really made me think. They are fit young men and I absolutely have to agree that they should be trying to fight this tyranny in their own country. OK, some are more vulnerable than others but many of the ones we see on TV are quite capable and just as fit as our troops who may have to go out there to sort the mess out! Your post really made me look at things differently. Excellent point, well made.

[Berniethebolt]

Re: Refugee Crisis

Wales, that is an excellent point and one that never entered my mind. I am totally for the UK taking in genuine refugees but your intelligent remark has really made me think. They are fit young men and I absolutely have to agree that they should be trying to fight this tyranny in their own country. OK, some are more vulnerable than others but many of the ones we see on TV are quite capable and just as fit as our troops who may have to go out there to sort the mess out! Your post really made me look at things differently. Excellent point, well made.

As I said earlier, we do not know the story. Some may be damaged by atrocities they have seen, some may fear that their families/village or whatever are under threat if they fight for their beliefs . It is not uncommon for whole families to be punished for the actions of 1 individual, this has happened in Nazi Germany, some Southern and Central American countries , China, North Korea, the list goes on.
With due respect while it may be the posters opinion I do not think it has been well thought through

[enaid]

Re: Refugee Crisis

That is the point I have been trying to make, but to not say it in a way that could make me seem heartless and prejudiced.
Those young fit men are someone's family member and they have left them to face what they are supposedly afraid of, quite sickening imho.

[PAWS]

Re: Refugee Crisis

As I said there are genuine refugees and in an earlier post I did point out that we should take them in and why but I do believe Wales made an excellent point. There are many young fit men among them. Now during the war in occupied European countries, young men stayed and fought in often horrific circumstances and under constant fear of death. Their families, friends and neighbours often paid an horrific price for their actions but they stayed and fought to free their country. One does not have to be a military expert to know that the occupying forces of WW2 were stronger and more organised than the IS.
We should help these people, no doubt and the vulnerable should be given refuge but we must also help them to help themselves. It is not easy to fight such a vicious enemy but if every capable person was to flee an occupying invasion or tyrannical force then the entire world would be living under the rule of despots and bullies. It is also hard to justify sending our troops, young man of the same physical age and level of fitness, over to their homeland to fight and die while they stay here in safety.
Fight with them yes, help them fight yes, take in their most vulnerable yes but let’s not keep on sacrificing our young men so that they may return to a peaceful home.

[Berniethebolt]

Re: Refugee Crisis

Paws
While I take your point , my point is that everyone should be free to live without fear and with the basic needs of life, food water, shelter. I have a problem with us imposing on them our standards, I also have a problem with us saying that they should do anything. During WW2 many more people either kept their heads down and tried to survive or tried to escape than those that joined the resistance .

One problem is that violence only escalates the problem so maybe if they take up arms against IS for example, IS will retaliate with more killing and more atrocities . We accepted Iraqi Kurds and other Iraqi's in the time of Saddam because when they tried to resist he just used chemical and biological weapons against them.

If you look at it, the thing that is causing this trouble is religion , just as it did in N.I., just as it has done in many countries across the world

[wales01man]

Re: Refugee Crisis

The trouble is not in the name of the mainstream religion I have Muslim friends who do in no way support those who abuse the name of their religion I am an atheist but I have respect for anyone who is a strong believer in what ever religion the are its just used as an excuse to turn others against Muslims and others who do not maim kill and terrorise.
When I used to see the cortege travelling through Wiltshire bringing home the Service men and women back in Coffins during our time in Afghanistan it made me wonder WHY we die for others who have no respect for others

[PAWS]

Re: Refugee Crisis

Paws
While I take your point , my point is that everyone should be free to live without fear and with the basic needs of life, food water, shelter.
Absolutely. This is why we should support their fight for freedom, not simply do it for them. We should also give sanctuary to the vulnerable refugees.

I have a problem with us imposing on them our standards,
We are not imposing our standards. They have asked us to help them. We should help them as much as we possibly can but we should not change our standards. After all, it is the standards of the UK that help to free a number of countries from such tyranny. Our standards mean that we do not run riot massacring those who do not agree with our standards and beliefs.
I also have a problem with us saying that they should do anything.
They must do something to help rid their country of the IS. We should help them as I said Ad nauseam but they also need to help themselves.
During WW2 many more people either kept their heads down and tried to survive or tried to escape than those that joined the resistance.
True but many did join the resistance and the actions of the resistance throughout Europe not only slowed down and weakened the Germans but helped to facilitate attacks on German facilities and eventually allied troops land in Italy and France.
One problem is that violence only escalates the problem so maybe if they take up arms against IS for example, IS will retaliate with more killing and more atrocities . We accepted Iraqi Kurds and other Iraqi's in the time of Saddam because when they tried to resist he just used chemical and biological weapons against them.
Violence is a very negative word. They began this with violence. It is up to the civilised world to end it with ‘Force’. Yes, in an ideal world we would love to reason with these people. How many men and women have died because leaders would not negotiate? I abhor violence but I am a realist. We will not stop the IS with reasonable negotiation.
And we helped the Iraqis fight their tyrant. OK things are still boiling away there but the Iraqis and especially the Kurds stood and fought often against hopeless odds. We took in the vulnerable.
If you look at it, the thing that is causing this trouble is religion, just as it did in N.I., just as it has done in many countries across the world
Religious bigotry is only one part of the issue in NI.

I have to go offline now as my MIL:vixen: is screeching again. She has just had her HIP replaced and I would rather face the IS right now!!!!!

[Berniethebolt]

Re: Refugee Crisis

PAWS
I hope you survived the MIL, I was lucky, my first(official in that I was married) was lovely and even after we separated she still stood up for me, the 2nd is a tough old bird from Yorkshire who calls a spade a bloody shovel and I wouldn't want to cross.

I think we are probably singing from a very similar hymn sheet with just a slightly different perspective . When I say we, I mean the west , particularly America which admittedly has been better since george W went , but we still try to impose our style of democracy , standards etc .
I also agree that we should be helping the country to help themselves and we did that in Afghanistan and we have tried in Iraq however I think the cultures are so very different we can not transplant one for another. It seems that we have helped provide the right environment for IS to grow which is a rather scary thought, certainly if the U.S , or any other country invaded to liberate us from the tyranny that we live under and impose a completely different style I would fight against that possibly, depending on how that was.