What is a fair benefits system?

[CleverClogs]

Re: What is a fair benefits system?

Now that's an idea, how about making people pass exams before they are allowed to have kids ?

I'd certainly pass the theory, though my performance in the practical exam might be less impressive. msl:

But, then, I'm happy never to have sired any sprogs. Can you imagine there being a litter like me?

[jon1965]

Re: What is a fair benefits system?

Multiple Cloggies...god help us.

So what are we suggesting here, eugenics?
You can wrap in up anyway you want but that's what some of the suggestions sound like.

There was an article in my favourite paper from 1938 complaining of all the illegal immigrants flooding into this country and how we should send them back, they were German Jews...seems we never change

[leclerc]

Re: What is a fair benefits system?

It would probably not be lawful, as only some shops would be allowed to accept the cards. This would contravene competition legislation,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18951205
In answer to that, I agree with you completely on the issue of competition legislation which is why we probably have not introduced it.

Really?

Do you believe that is an excuse to cut benefits even further, or the reason why the national minimum wage should be increased to a more sensible level?
I believe that it is right to ensure that those who can work should earn more that those who do not work. If that means that the government cuts benefits or even, as they have done, reduce the increase per year on benefits then so be it.

And also bring in euthanasia for those who will probably never be able to work?

There are people who will never work and it is still our duty to support vulnerable members of our society with their day to day living. However, when it does not pay to even have a part time job, because of the loss in benefits that it may cause then the benefits system is not fit for purpose.
So maybe the answer is to increase the minimum wage or decrease the amount in benefits that a person can have. In the first post Eloise has pointed to a story on a woman with 6 kids who thinks she may not cope on £26000 income. the question to ask must surely be why can she not cope on that amount?

[jon1965]

Re: What is a fair benefits system?

One thing I can not see in the guardian article is the level of benefits we are talking about. How much is welfare in Germany or France...and why only those two European countries

[Sapphire]

Re: What is a fair benefits system?

In the first post Eloise has pointed to a story on a woman with 6 kids who thinks she may not cope on £26000 income. the question to ask must surely be why can she not cope on that amount?

Perhaps we should also ask why the woman is on her own with 6 kids in tow as well, yes, yes I know that there's lots of mitigating circumstances such as divorce, being made a widow etc, they are genuine cases that need help, but if the woman has just gone ahead and had 6 kids by different fathers or even the same father then we should be making the father/s pay for their kids and of course we should be discouraging women like this to just go ahead and have loads of kids in order to avoid contributing to society, and the only way to stop it will be to phase out child related benefits.

[jon1965]

Re: What is a fair benefits system?

What everyone seems to miss on the benefits cap is that it includes all benefits, child benefit, council tax, housing and as such should vary from area to area. Why should I be pused out from an area where I have lived all my life because it has become expensive and rents go up...

In my little example above, even working 30 hours a week brought in a shed load of benefits taking the "income" to over 40K

[Inca]

Re: What is a fair benefits system?

The worst 'paid' job is definitely Carers Allowance..it's a mockery.I know what my OH has to do for me,day in ,day out and I'm not an easy person to care for,my limbs let me down but my brain and mouth don't and I get extremely agitated when I can't do things I could do a year ago.
I,,with many others,have no say in my health issues,they happen and one has to adapt but women having copious amounts of kids when they are already on benefits is a disgrace.Personally I think if they are already on benefits if they choose to have more kids then they shouldn't get more money. My Mum didnt get extra wages to support her 6 kids,,she worked,,and worked bloody hard.
And I know I'm going to get slated for this but it's how I feel,,DEPRESSION/STRESS/MH ISSUES are used far too frequently as a reason not to work,,just by reading forums I can see loads of people looking for advice on the best way to get benefits for these issues.I'm not for a moment decrying those who genuinely have such problems,I'm classed as 'chronically depressed' and will be on pills for the rest of my life for it BUT, if I physically could,I would be out at work like a shot. So many people are defrauding the system this way,,and quite a few are being caught out.
I don't agree with ATOS at all,,GP's should be doing the assessments not a pen pilot who hasn't really got a clue but I do think,in a lot of cases,those who are shouting loudest have the most to hide and lose.

(ok,,am back on the Hell bus msl

[jon1965]

Re: What is a fair benefits system?

Well I could just wade in and hang you out to dry, but certainly within work stress and mental health issues are at times a cop out.
You say you are long term depressed, to be honest it is hardly surprising if you have such severe physical problems and if you were physically fit you may well not have the mental health issues.

People with mental health issues are an easy target because you can not see it . Many people with mental health problems develop coping strategies which avoid them having to confront their issues. To a certain extent and more so if we have a partner, we can live our lives isolated and without the need to communicate with others, we do not have to make ourselves open to the hurt of rejection by other people and if we delve into cyber space we can pretend to be someone different or ignore people we do not like.
Having that feeling that you are utterly worthless but not showing it, does not make that feeling any less real.
Everywhere you go in life there are bullies, be it in work, on the street , on a forum..and yes every website I have ever been on has had its fair share of bullies.
Most people can cope with that most of the time and some people can cope with it some of the time and then some can only cope with it for a minority of the time .

I am not disputing the fact that the welfare system needs reforming but when you look at where the money goes you will see that pensions go for over 50% of welfare spending , more if you include AA. I wonder how much money it costs to run the tribunal service and how much could be saved if ATOS got it right in the first place

If you want to save money it needs a root and branch change to employment law, disability law, ATOS, paying universal benefits such as child benefit (although I hear that is changing for the poor loves who earn 50K) tax credits to wealthier families


The problem with GPs doing assessments is that they get it wrong or are corrupt on too many occasions. Lets be generous and say they are overworked and just tick the boxes for an easy life

[bluebottle]

Re: What is a fair benefits system?

The benefits system, when it was initially created, was to provide a hand up to those who had fallen on difficult times due to no fault of their own. My mother came across this when she was single and working, as a Clerical Officer, with the Ministry of Labour, one of the forerunners to the DWP. Fraud within the benefits system has been around from its early days. It has been found that organised gangs, mainly, from West Africa, have been creating bogus personalities with the sole intent of defrauding the DWP. Fraud by Brits is, surprisingly, very small, compared that committed by foreign crime gangs. The reason this fraud has been allowed to go on seemingly unchecked is a failure on the part of successive governments to properly resource the DWP Fraud Investigation Section and a failure to conduct proper and sufficient checks on claimants applying for benefits.

[bluebottle]

Re: What is a fair benefits system?

If you want to save money it needs a root and branch change to employment law, disability law, ATOS, paying universal benefits such as child benefit (although I hear that is changing for the poor loves who earn 50K) tax credits to wealthier families.

I have advocated that current Employment Law needs tearing up, all parties to sit around a table and come up with a framework that is practical, workable and fair to all. However, as long as you have vested interests manipulating the politicians, the status quo will continue unabated. ATOS should have their contract rescinded or the government should have the balls to inflict financial penalties on them each time they get a WCA wrong or put a claimant's health and safety at risk.

[Inca]

Re: What is a fair benefits system?

You could have TRIED to hang me out to dry jon,,but you wouldn't have achieved it because I stand by everything I say.

Immediately,when I tell people I have chronic depression they jump to the same conclusion you appear to have,,that my illness/disability and the way my life has changed has caused it and that's only partly true because MS has robbed my brains ability to make 'happy hormones' and a couple of things that have happened in my life I found I could not cope with without medical intervention. I will never get any 'better' in that I will always need the tablets but I see them as a means to an end,,they keep me stable,,I have been at the bottom of the black pit of depression and sadness and have no intention of re-visiting it.Oddly enough,,all this happened whilst I was still physically able to work,,and I was working.

I always say...like me..loathe me..love me...hate me or leave me alone,,the choice is there.I have a wonderful family,good friends who are not afraid to tell me I'm being a pleb (knowing that I will hit the roof before calming down and agreeing with them).

We need an infrastructure of benefits in this country that really supports those that need it,,and stops wiping the backsides of those that have found the loopholes and exploit them.

[CleverClogs]

Re: What is a fair benefits system?

In the first post Eloise has pointed to a story on a woman with 6 kids who thinks she may not cope on £26000 income. the question to ask must surely be why can she not cope on that amount?

Housing costs?

Perhaps we should also ask why the woman is on her own with 6 kids in tow as well, yes, yes I know that there's lots of mitigating circumstances such as divorce, being made a widow etc, they are genuine cases that need help, but if the woman has just gone ahead and had 6 kids by different fathers or even the same father then we should be making the father/s pay for their kids

That might be a bit difficult if the father had died or been locked up in gaol.

and of course we should be discouraging women like this to just go ahead and have loads of kids in order to avoid contributing to society, and the only way to stop it will be to phase out child related benefits.

Rather than the Modest Proposal to which I alluded?

[jon1965]

Re: What is a fair benefits system?

Inca, Of course I could have hung you out to dry because I am always right...there is no point arguing because even when I am wrong I am right
In this case I said maybe and who knows how you would be without your physical condition, it is something alas we will never know

I couldn't agree with you more about stopping the abuse of the system although if you look at the figures the level of fraud is in fact low as is the cost to the taxpayer (in the great scheme of things). If you dig further into the fraud figures you will find that most are committed by organised crime and that is a whole new argument that I do not want to get into here.

As for loving/hating or whatever, I have no opinion (except that you are wrong:behindsofa

[jon1965]

Re: What is a fair benefits system?

I have another easy solution for you cloggy
50% of welfare payments(and NHS costs) go to pensioners if we reduce the number of pensioners by 50% we save 25% off the welfare bill.

Now PlanB get on your bike and find a job:behindsofa:

[CleverClogs]

Re: What is a fair benefits system?

I have another easy solution for you cloggy
50% of welfare payments(and NHS costs) go to pensioners if we reduce the number of pensioners by 50% we save 25% off the welfare bill.

Yes, but who would want to eat them?