What is a fair benefits system?

[Eloise01]

Not grinding any axes here - a genuine question. Tonight I have been reading that the British are more tolerant than European neighbours with regard to supporting the poorer sections of society (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...france-germany) Just after that I was reading a thread on another site where the OP was saying that she could not afford to support herself and her six children due to the benefits cap and changes in council tax benefit, despite the fact that after the cuts, her income would be in excess of £26,000 - more than many people earn from working. And we all know the stories of the person on disability benefits and a disabled parking permit who can jog to the pub or the shop when they run out of fags!

So here's my dilemma. I don't like ATOS either. I don't think that benefits provide many people with a liveable income. I know people cheat and exploit the system. I also know that others don't. I think we should support the less well off. I also object to paying for the indolent. So what actually is the answer??? It's easy to knock the government - well they just walk into it, don't they; and it's a personal hobby, I confess! But how would we do it better?

What would you do to make things fairer and more equitable?

[Sapphire]

Re: What is a fair benefits system?

I agree we should support the less well off, but and this is a big but we need to encourage more people to fend for themselves, ie with working, not having children that they can't afford, so they can gain another benefit and so on.

I'd pay the benefits in the form of vouchers/credit card type thingy, that way the benefit can be spent on what its intended for ie food, clothing and so on not ciggies, booze, holidays.

With regards to ATOS, I think I'm right in believing that the interviews are being carried out by untrained medical staff, if thats the case then we need to have genuine doctors carrying out the tests, ie: make each GP become responsible for the people on his own books and if they are found out to be swinging the lead then the GP be held jointly responsible, it might take a year or so to filter the results down and get ever genuine claim sorted out but hopefully it should sort out at least part of the problem.

[seduraed]

Re: What is a fair benefits system?

I was reading down and in paris and london , by george orwell . He makes the point that the treats in the form of fAGSAND FISHAND CHIPS ARE VERY IMPORTANT FOR MORALE . SO PERHAPS a limited amount should be allowed .

[wales01man]

Re: What is a fair benefits system?

first we need jobs so there is no need for large numbers claiming unemployment benefits if theres a job for someone unemp;oyed that they can do they must take it
tax credits replaced by higher wages paid by the employers who are being subsidised by hem so they at the moment pay miniumum wages and the state tops it up
Means test for all benefits pensions etc and a fair system of assesing disabled claiments with doctors a specialist deciding someones disability
In order to have a fair benefit system the whole structure of pay and rewards across the public sector beeds reform how can we have some needing food banks and some on banks owned by the people getting million pound bonises

[bluebottle]

Re: What is a fair benefits system?

The problem with the benefits system - and I am on benefits because I am unable to work through disability - is that it has slowly become an illegal subsidy for employers who are not paying a living wage. Income Support and Tax Credits are not there to enable employers to unfairly undercut the competition. The UK should do what some other countries do and that is make low-paying employers reimburse the taxpayer, as well as fine them. The other thing that enrages me is that self-employed persons - and I was once self-employed - pay 40% tax on the profits if it reaches a certain level. On top of that, they are also liable to a further 16% tax if the profits are over a certain figure, making a total of 56% tax. Compare that to the likes of Tescos paying only 21% tax and it really does take the biscuit. The likes of Tesco should pay more, at least 30%, 40% if their pre-tax profits hit the £1 billion mark.

On the subject of a living wage, Boris Johnson is trying to get businesses in the London area to sign up to paying their employees a living wage. He may come across as a buffoon and total plonker at times, but Boris is right that employers should pay a living wage.

[CleverClogs]

Re: What is a fair benefits system?

The problem with the benefits system ... is that it has slowly become an illegal subsidy for employers who are not paying a living wage.

It has had that aspect to it for a while - over thirty years ago, one job for which I applied was going to "fit in around me" and, when I asked what was meant, they replied that I obviously couldn't be at work when it was my morning to sign on!

Income Support and Tax Credits are not there to enable employers to unfairly undercut the competition.

Quite.

Workfare is supposed to do that.

[CleverClogs]

Re: What is a fair benefits system?

I agree we should support the less well off, but and this is a big but we need to encourage more people to fend for themselves, ie with working, not having children that they can't afford, so they can gain another benefit and so on.

Would you tend to support a possible solution? (link)
(Also available as an mp3 audiobook - link)

If that were to be pursued properly, the export earnings could wipe out the deficit in less than a decade!

[enaid]

Re: What is a fair benefits system?

Well I doubt it would ever be a truly fair system what ever is set up, human nature makes sure of that.

As money is the root of all of the problems and basically there is not enough going in the pot to cover the benefits being paid out. What would like to know is how can this be allowed to happen http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...eyside-1781770 and this is happening on a regular basis, either work being taken abroad or foreign workers brought in to do the so called work we will not do. I am certainly not the sharpest knife in the drawer but even I can see in the long run it is false economy. The sacked workers will be put on benefits, the local businesses will suffer too as people spend less.
It has got to be the aim to get people who can and want to work back in the position to do so. We have a full generation who don't just think it's a right to receive benefits but the only way they can survive.

Make sure all put in the pot their fair dues there is too much tax avoidance and evasion.

There are very many who obviously will never work for whatever reason, there are also very many who would be considered able to work, but I am sure their employability would be very limited. I think the latter is the real problem and the fact they are fit but unemployable. I can understand why they should not be on incapacity and yet JSA is an insult imo as there are no jobs to seek. So something needs to be in place for the people I would class as almost in limbo work wise.

Have a proper system where absent fathers are made to help keep their kids, there are enough on Jeremy Kyle every day to help boost the failing pot, with their pockets hit instead of ours.

As for housing/council tax benefits, that will never be solved until there is enough affordable social housing. The rents in social housing are catching up to private rental rates by the minute, something I believe the government endorses. So the bigger the rent the more again comes out of the failing pot, another case of false economy in my view.

As for the Europeans who do not tolerate the poorer sections of society as we do, I believe they do not tolerate the standard of service that we do either, something else that needs addressing and from the top down. There is no bigger reason for people to give up and think 'why the hell should I bother' when they are being ripped off by people who we depend on in our daily lives.

[leclerc]

Re: What is a fair benefits system?

there is a system in Australia in which you are giving a card which your benefits are paid into. You can spend as much or as little as you need but the card does not allow you to buy cigarettes and booze. That might be something worth considering.
I do agree with the government that at the moment, people of working age are not encouraged to work because you can be given more money on the dole than you would earn in a job. I do think though that there should be 1 months grace in terms of when people go back to work, ie that benefits stop after the first month because a lot of times overpayments are made when you return to work.
I think as well people that we should demonise unemployment and teach people about entrepreneurship if there are not jobs in their area. I do think people should not scoff at part time work either(I work two cleaning jobs and I know of people who work multiple jobs to get by).

[enaid]

Re: What is a fair benefits system?

This is on a very personal note re benefits, my daughter is in receipt of direct payments this pays for 2 PAS to assist and actually enhance her life. I have a review in a couple of weeks although not actually due yet I know that a reduction in her hours and consequently her care package is what the assessment is all about.
I have yet another scrap on my hands as once these hours are taken away for whatever reason it is nigh on impossible to get them back. This impacts 5 lives not just my daughter who has improved immensely by the help and one to one support from these 2 ladies. So I wait and see what our fate is.
Needless to say the lady who runs our council has taken a pay freeze this year, not a lot of impact on her and hers as she is paid far more than even the Prime Minister.
Just a personal gripe re benefits along with the pittance of Carers Allowance that is all I receive and because I am married my husband makes up the difference that I need to live on and not the government. Is it any wonder people are better off remaining single.

[jon1965]

Re: What is a fair benefits system?

I do not know how to fix the benefits system but it is completely wrecked. Only a very small proportion of the budget goes on JSA . One thing that strikes me as responsible is the lack of full time work. There are a lot of part time jobs that have 3 3/4 hour shifts so no breaks are needed (maybe I am out of date). Total wages were set to be under the lower NI limit so that the employer did not have to pay employer NI contributions.
Then you get tax credits to families on 50K per year.

My OH has some very radical views on benefits , such as community service style work for benefits, children taken into care if the 16 year old mothers can not control their sex life.

What worries me about the benefit cap is that it includes council tax and housing benefits so depending on where you live the actual amount in your hand can be substantially different.
I have just done a hypothetical benefits claim for a single parent with 5 kids living in renetd accom costing 250 a week and Ct 1200 a year. Working 30 hours a week for 210 so above minimum wage.
Total potential benefits come out at over 600 per week + wages which would be above the governments limit.
Redid it saying not working and the benefits calculator came in at 690 per week, again over the limit, but think that includes 250 pw rent and 100 a month CT
That kind of shows it is the headlines are perverting peoples opinions.

[Sapphire]

Re: What is a fair benefits system?

How about rewarding people NOT to have shed loads of children and rely on benefits, how about tax relief for those who do not have children ?

How radical is that ?

[CleverClogs]

Re: What is a fair benefits system?

How about rewarding people NOT to have shed loads of children and rely on benefits, how about tax relief for those who do not have children ?

How radical is that ?

And a free council house too?

It could increase the number of young wenches on the pill.

[Sapphire]

Re: What is a fair benefits system?

And a free council house too? Not on your nelly.

It could increase the number of young wenches on the pill.

Now that's an idea, how about making people pass exams before they are allowed to have kids ? :behindsofa::jaw::bolt:

[CleverClogs]

Re: What is a fair benefits system?

there is a system in Australia in which you are giving a card which your benefits are paid into. You can spend as much or as little as you need but the card does not allow you to buy cigarettes and booze. That might be something worth considering.

It would probably not be lawful, as only some shops would be allowed to accept the cards. This would contravene competition legislation,

I do agree with the government that at the moment, people of working age are not encouraged to work because you can be given more money on the dole than you would earn in a job.

Really?

Do you believe that is an excuse to cut benefits even further, or the reason why the national minimum wage should be increased to a more sensible level?

I think as well people that we should demonise unemployment and teach people about entrepreneurship if there are not jobs in their area.

And also bring in euthanasia for those who will probably never be able to work?