Ding Dong the Witch is Dead

[EXC]

Re: Ding Dong the Witch is Dead

Let it not be forgotten that it was Thatcher who let the banks off the leash.

It's true that she did let the dogs off their leads but it was Gordon Brown who removed their muzzles and that's when the real damage was done.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Ding Dong the Witch is Dead

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=115075052023779

[Sapphire]

Re: Ding Dong the Witch is Dead

msl:

[Eloise01]

Re: Ding Dong the Witch is Dead

Instead of bitching about the poor woman dying, how about you start a thread and have a discussion on all the good or bad things she did ?

And by that I mean a discussion not a bloody argument.

By all means, let's have that discussion. And one about double standards.

Yesterday and for a few days before, quite a few people, including some who have commented on other peoples "decency" here were openly advocating non-state sanctioned murder and violence, the rule of the mob, and rape. I didn't happen to agree with them, but I respect their right to air their personal opinions without resorting to questioning their characters.

Now let me tell you a little story. I was 22 years old in 1984. I was not, like many people of my profession, brought up with any silver spoons. If we'd had them, they would have been sold. On 22nd August 1984, the day when Margaret Thatchers bully boys laid seige to my village for three days, they blockaded all the roads, blocking all traffic and public transport in or out of the village. Those in the village were staying in the village. The bully boys - and I don't call them police officers because those who participated in this action were not police officers and were not upholding the law, and I have more respect for the police than to condemn people for wearing a uniform - rampaged through our village, kicking in doors and terrorising families, destroying as they went. I watched my own mother beaten to the ground for trying to defend her home, and in that instant, if I could have done it, I would have committed murder without a second thought. I watched my younger brother and my two year old sister forced back by men in uniforms, screaming and crying - momories that they still have and wake them at night in cold sweats.

Another one. I don't now recall the date of the peaceful march in Nottingham which ended with a picnic in a park just outside the city centre. I do recall it was warm and sunny. I do recall that miners and their families were picnicing on the grass when there was an unprovoked attack on the families by nassed ranks of police. I recall watching mounted police charge babies in prams while their mothers stood in front of them to protect their children. I recall hearing police officers tell BBC cameramen to "turn of their f***ing cameras or they would be next".

I remember Orgreave. I remember countless forgotten places and incidents. And I remember exactly who was responsible for state sanctioned violence and terror, and the murder of my communities.

I didn't advocate murdering Thatcher, I naver have and I never would have done. I didn't advocate beating her up. I didn't advocate raping her. But am I glad she is dead? Yes, I am. She lived to an old age, which was more, in my opinion, than she deserved. I hope she was haunted by the violence and damage that she did to her dying breath, although I doubt she gave it a second thought. Yes, I am bitter and angry about what I saw and experienced in those years - but I turned it to good stead by defending the rights of workers whenever I could; by trying to claw back some of those rights that were lost under her iron rule; and where I couldn't, making it clear to people what they could and could not expect by a legal system that protects the interests of the rich and powerful over those that create the wealth they enjoy.

My mother died at the age of 63 years old, of a heart condition. Her first heart attack was one day after she was beaten by police officers acting at the behest of a despotic government led by Margaret Thatcher. The police turned away the ambulance that came for her. It wasn't allowed in until two days later. My father died at the age of 69 years, of pneumoconiosis contracted from unsafe working conditions which were well known - he never saw a penny of the much vaunted compensation because the claim process took so long that he died before the claim was processed. As many miners did.

I will never forgive Thatcher for what she did. She stripped the humanity from people, set them against each other, and she did it deliberately to further her own personal agenda. A personnel officer from ICI, in rejecting a job application from her in 1948, said she was "dangerously self-opinionated". I wonder what he would have thought 40 years later? I know what I think 30 years later. She can rot in hell and I make no apology for saying that. And if that makes me a less "decent person", I'd suggest that more than a few of you examine your own conscience - and some of your recent posts - and tell me that you wouldn't defend your family and your community.

[wales01man]

Re: Ding Dong the Witch is Dead

I take it some people didnt like her then?

[Sapphire]

Re: Ding Dong the Witch is Dead

Oh Eloise I am six years older than you, I remember the miners strikes, but coming from the south all we saw was what was on the news, I can remember miners sitting in clubs drinking and smoking and moaning about not having enough money to feed and clothe their families, yet they could afford to drink and smoke, that vision has stuck with me ever since and whenever I see/hear anyone say the same I always question whether they drink or smoke before paying their bills or getting food.
We never saw the coppers going in and bullying the people either.
It goes to show the power of the media doesn't it ?
I guess down here we were shielded from what went on up there, but as I say I was young at the time, in 1984 I was 28 and busy working my way abroad, so I never saw what went on then either.
I can however remember the Polltax troubles, and can remember standing in the court for my liquor licence and people up in front of the magistrates for non payment of the polltax, all singing funny songs together in protest, in fact there was an argument in the pub that evening where a guy was moaning about the amount he had to pay to another guy, first guy had nine in his house and the other was just him and his wife, they were arguing if it was fair that a house with two people in paid the same as a house with nine in.
I'm not decrying what anyone believes about Maggie but I do believe that she believed that she did what was right and stood by that belief. Whether that was right or wrong that's one thing, but I think that she should be admired for standing by her beliefs, as should the others such as Arthur Scargill.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Ding Dong the Witch is Dead

I do believe that she believed that she did what was right and stood by that belief.

So did Benito Mussolini.

[enquirer]

Re: Ding Dong the Witch is Dead

Thatcher authorised the use of agents-provocateurs and staged incidents during the miners strike. Some of the missile throwing 'miners' who appeared in much publicised riot footage were later identified as police officers.

That makes her a criminal.

[Sapphire]

Re: Ding Dong the Witch is Dead

Yes he did, as did loads of other dictators, as I said no one is saying she was right or wrong, thats a whole new discussion and another thread.

[Eloise01]

Re: Ding Dong the Witch is Dead

Oh Eloise I am six years older than you, I remember the miners strikes, but coming from the south all we saw was what was on the news, I can remember miners sitting in clubs drinking and smoking and moaning about not having enough money to feed and clothe their families, yet they could afford to drink and smoke, that vision has stuck with me ever since and whenever I see/hear anyone say the same I always question whether they drink or smoke before paying their bills or getting food.
We never saw the coppers going in and bullying the people either.
It goes to show the power of the media doesn't it ?
I guess down here we were shielded from what went on up there, but as I say I was young at the time, in 1984 I was 28 and busy working my way abroad, so I never saw what went on then either.
I can however remember the Polltax troubles, and can remember standing in the court for my liquor licence and people up in front of the magistrates for non payment of the polltax, all singing funny songs together in protest, in fact there was an argument in the pub that evening where a guy was moaning about the amount he had to pay to another guy, first guy had nine in his house and the other was just him and his wife, they were arguing if it was fair that a house with two people in paid the same as a house with nine in.
I'm not decrying what anyone believes about Maggie but I do believe that she believed that she did what was right and stood by that belief. Whether that was right or wrong that's one thing, but I think that she should be admired for standing by her beliefs, as should the others such as Arthur Scargill.

I can assure you that no miner drank or smoked before feeding their family or paying their bills. Or those that did would have done it before the Stike too and probably weren't on strike. The day I mentioned in Nottingham? I was there. I went home to see the news. I have never believed a word of the news since that day. It scares me that we don't know enough about how our country is really run. Maggie may have believed what she did was right. I actually sort of hope she did, because it was probably all she was left with in the end. As Cleverclogs observed - so did Stalin. So did Hitler.

But just to emphasise, I did not blame the police any more than I blamed the miners. In fact there is quite a lot of evidence that more than a few of those people in police uniforms were not police officers at all. But we know that police officers aren't all perfect either. Nor is anyone else. Scargill made fundamental errors of judgement, if not of belief. But we still live with the legacy of Thatcher - it is alive and well in the current government, but they are, despite opinion to the contrary, much cleverer. She laid a foundation of callous government which, now, ordinary people vote for. As a society we are far more selfish and far more concerned about what we get for ourselves and the devil take the hindmost. Now the government can steal from the poorest with the consent of the people.

[Hurricane Puffrose]

Re: Ding Dong the Witch is Dead

Have to agree, some of the comments are disgraceful.

She was somebody's ,mother, somebody's wife and somebody's daughter.

RIP to her.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Ding Dong the Witch is Dead

She was somebody's ,mother, somebody's wife and somebody's daughter.

And also somebody's denier of justice, somebody's nightmare, somebody's killer and somebody's war criminal.

[Eloise01]

Re: Ding Dong the Witch is Dead

Have to agree, some of the comments are disgraceful.

She was somebody's ,mother, somebody's wife and somebody's daughter.
.

So is Melanie Boswell. By all accounts she is somebody's grandmother. So is Maraid Phillpott somebodies mother, wife and daughter. Onbviously none of these things are qualifying factors in being a decent human being.

[Hurricane Puffrose]

Re: Ding Dong the Witch is Dead

personally I find a lot of the comments offensive, talking about piddling on her grave, talking about how Altzhiemers wasnt enough.. totally out of order.

I was a school girl when she was in power, I can remember the miners strikes just, i remember a lot of shouting and a lot of anger on the TV, I also remember the journalists fighting to keep in fleet street, remember my dad being made redundant as he couldnt get to Canary Wharf, I remember losing free school milk and singing maggie thatcher the milk snatcher, but I also remember her saying, after watching her own friends and colleuges in the Brighton Bomb saying YOU DONT SCARE ME and thinking, what a woman!

Love her or hate her, she never backed down.

Again and this is person to me, I wish her rest in peace, and a happy reunion with Dennis.. and a lot of grudging respect to the first female PM.

[bluebottle]

Re: Ding Dong the Witch is Dead

I am only two years older than Eloise. I was serving with the MoD Police in 1984 and we were tied up with the peace camp at Greenham Common. However, we would hear about what was happening in the coal mining communities from Home Office forces who were sending officers there and many of us felt physically sick at what we heard. Much of our duties at Greenham Common was to keep the peace camp inhabitants and the US servicemen coming into contact with each other.