Grand National 2012 Thread

[Hurricane Puffrose]

Re: Grand National 2012 Thread

they destroyed the horses cos, if a human breaks a leg its 6 weeks on crutches etc, if a horse breaks a leg they are in a sling holding them up until it heals (if it ever does) and they are prone to pnuemonia and other illnesses due to not moving, it is the fairest thing for them.

Im neither pro or anti horse racing, I am anti flogging the poor thing with a whip and wanted to wrap the whip round the jockeys head! but i have to agree that to me, its a dangerous racecourse.. but! i have a suggestion as to safety!

have somewhere for the riderless horses to leave the track, like an escape route, and have more of them, then the horses arent being hit by un controlled horses, the jockeys arent being trampled on and theres less likelyhood of the poor things having a massive pile up cos one got spooked.. also i think they should have had the horse blanketed a lot quicker than they did!!

[Guest]

Re: Grand National 2012 Thread

i
I am not against horse racing, footballing nor anything else really.
Yes a footballer had a heart attck the other day , hundreds of thousands of footballs take to the pitch every day, all over the world, one of them had a heart attack , dont get me wrong it is very sad but it hardly compares with an event that lasts for half an hour once a year and always results in the fatal injury of at least one poor creature.
I dont think your argument is logical with all due respect.

I just dont think that the cost in animals liives and yes and the risk to human ones justifies the spectacle.

In general if you know in advance that an act is ikely to cause the death of one of the participants then you just dont do it, this doesnt sem to apply to this particular event.

Peter

[leclerc]

Re: Grand National 2012 Thread

i
I am not against horse racing, footballing nor anything else really.
Yes a footballer had a heart attck the other day , hundreds of thousands of footballs take to the pitch every day, all over the world, one of them had a heart attack , dont get me wrong it is very sad but it hardly compares with an event that lasts for half an hour once a year and always results in the fatal injury of at least one poor creature.
I dont think your argument is logical with all due respect.

I just dont think that the cost in animals liives and yes and the risk to human ones justifies the spectacle.

In general if you know in advance that an act is ikely to cause the death of one of the participants then you just dont do it, this doesnt sem to apply to this particular event.

Peter

Aintree this year changed the entry level which meant that only experienced race horses could enter the Grand National. They had to be between 7 and 12 years old. One of the major fences, Beachers Brooke was levelled on the landing as a result of previous deaths at the Grand National. They lowered the Chair fence, I believe, which again reduces the element of danger.

With regards to the two horses that died and having watched the rerun and subsequent comments from the racetrack. The first horse, "According to Pete" did not die from jumping the fences, the injury it sustained was from another horse falling into it. It's difficult to explain but there were one or two fences where the horse falling lead to other horses being brought down. It was a tragic accident.
"Synchronised" on the other hand unseated the rider(Kieron Fallon) for the second time that day having chucked him off before the start. The horse itself, continued on for another 5 fences jumping them before sustaining a leg fracture, so was not even racing with a jockey on board.
@labman, that is a good point re loose horses but I'm not sure how they can do that considering that it is in race conditions and the horses are generally following other horses.
I know that Aintree will again review the race again with a view to making the race as safe as possible for the horses running but the only way to have completely prevented the deaths is for there to be no horses in the race which means no racing and that is clearly not ideal.

[Sapphire]

Re: Grand National 2012 Thread

From what I was told yesterday by someone who is in the know, they save some horses ie those who would be good for stud duties/breeding etc and destroy those who are not.

That makes me feel worse as a 'failed' breeder myself (I lost my baby 7 months into the pregnancy in 1980), so going on that, perhaps a few years ago when I broke my foot, or last year when I got cancer, the theory would be that I'd have been 'put down'.

[Guest]

Re: Grand National 2012 Thread

Aintree this year changed the entry level which meant that only experienced race horses could enter the Grand National. They had to be between 7 and 12 years old. One of the major fences, Beachers Brooke was levelled on the landing as a result of previous deaths at the Grand National. They lowered the Chair fence, I believe, which again reduces the element of danger.

With regards to the two horses that died and having watched the rerun and subsequent comments from the racetrack. The first horse, "According to Pete" did not die from jumping the fences, the injury it sustained was from another horse falling into it. It's difficult to explain but there were one or two fences where the horse falling lead to other horses being brought down. It was a tragic accident.
"Synchronised" on the other hand unseated the rider(Kieron Fallon) for the second time that day having chucked him off before the start. The horse itself, continued on for another 5 fences jumping them before sustaining a leg fracture, so was not even racing with a jockey on board.
@labman, that is a good point re loose horses but I'm not sure how they can do that considering that it is in race conditions and the horses are generally following other horses.
I know that Aintree will again review the race again with a view to making the race as safe as possible for the horses running but the only way to have completely prevented the deaths is for there to be no horses in the race which means no racing and that is clearly not ideal.

Nobody is saying (certainly not me) that horse racing should be stopped.

But the loss of thiry odd animals at the same meet over the last five years would indicate that there is something wrong, to the reasonable observer i think.
When you compare our concernes about this event with orcinarry racing activities you attempt to cloud the issue, no one is saying that activities should be stopped because there is a risk of accident or even death as long as that risk is reasonable and proprtionate, at Aintree death of at least one animal is not a risk it is a virtual certainty.

Peter

[labman]

Re: Grand National 2012 Thread

I've never looked into this subject before, but as I just start to probe the surface, there also seems to be a 'cover up' as to the extent of the real issue here.

I knew three horses were killed at Cheltenham from earlier in this thread - Leclerc correctly stated that there had only been one other fatality in this race since 2000. That is more acceptable - a 10%ish chance of a fatality.

However, on reading today about it, the truth is five horses were killed in the first two days of the Cheltenham festival:

RSPCA very concerned at death of five horses

This somewhat changes the picture. What is the truth of how many animals are being needlessly killed in these events? We didn't get to hear about the other two deaths.

Like Peter, I am not anti horse racing per se, but 33 animals killed over the Aintree weekend since 2000 is a 275% chance of a fatality. Cheltenham 6 now known deaths (I suspect the figure is much higher) in 12 years is obviously a 50% chance of a fatality.

Put it this way, I said earlier I continue to enjoy some dangerous sports, but in 36 years of participating in them, I have sustained one accident.

If when I did them I knew there was a 50% chance of death, I wouldn't do it - I suspect none of us here would, it is considerably more dangerous than Russian Roultette (16.7% chance of death). If I knew there was a 275% chance of death, I would not be anywhere near the place.

I find seeing it as percentages brings home the real risk.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______

Just done a bit more digging (it took one Google to find the true figure for the Cheltenham festival is 25 deaths since 2006). A staggering 416% chance of a fatality. It makes Aintree look positively safe. I am starting to feel genuinely concerned about the acceptability factor of this aspect of this sport now. I was also right in saying I suspected the true figure to be much higher.

[Guest]

Re: Grand National 2012 Thread

This gives some i dea of the reality of the situation.

Does make you think

http://horsedeathwatch.com/table.php

[labman]

Re: Grand National 2012 Thread

I've no idea what AW and NH mean, but that's an awful lot of dead horses. I only looked at Ascot, Kempton and Southwell as I'd heard of them. I'd seen enough after those.

To me, and obviously it is only my opinion, I am horrified by this.

Leclerc made a comparison earlier to human beings. I'll make another one.

If someone goes into an operation where there is a slim chance of survival, and they do survive, we call them brave for doing it, usually in a stalwart manner. We call them fortunate to have survived it. We see, meet, hear of people who have gone through these near death experiences and our admiration for them rises beyond measure. Many of us will know someone like that - there may be some on this site!

How does that compare with the 'voluntary' slaughter of so many animals?

[astraldream]

Re: Grand National 2012 Thread

Have you ever tried to make a horse jump a fence?

This made me hoot with laughter. It is of course VERY true. Anyone trying to make a horse jump a fence that it doesnt want to will end up flying over the fence in the most uncerimonious fashion. hahahahhahaa oh the days....

[Hurricane Puffrose]

Re: Grand National 2012 Thread

i think on the whole if you are dealing with an animal that relies on 4 legs, that is basically the worlds first 4x4 vehicle, and the the sheer weight of the animal means immobilising it is impossible you are going to have fatalities. with a cat or a dog, you can lock them in and mother them, a cat will be only too pleased to be pampered, and a dog.. well they are dogs really arent they.. nuff said!!

but anyone who has ever travelled with a horse in transit will tell you they get... whats the word.. BORED! and fast! its cruel to deliberatly immobilise a horse, and a horse that gets bored starts to kick! hence damaging the other leg, plus a horse that isnt moving can develop lung problems.

I think that the RSPCA is doing a stirling job looking in to Aintree and that the racetrack are working in line with them, and while its terrible, and yes i was actually in tears that the poor animals were destroyed.... has anyone heard about the poor jockey who i in a induced coma?

[astraldream]

Re: Grand National 2012 Thread

I've never looked into this subject before, but as I just start to probe the surface, there also seems to be a 'cover up' as to the extent of the real issue here.

I knew three horses were killed at Cheltenham from earlier in this thread - Leclerc correctly stated that there had only been one other fatality in this race since 2000. That is more acceptable - a 10%ish chance of a fatality.

However, on reading today about it, the truth is five horses were killed in the first two days of the Cheltenham festival:

RSPCA very concerned at death of five horses

This somewhat changes the picture. What is the truth of how many animals are being needlessly killed in these events? We didn't get to hear about the other two deaths.

Like Peter, I am not anti horse racing per se, but 33 animals killed over the Aintree weekend since 2000 is a 275% chance of a fatality. Cheltenham 6 now known deaths (I suspect the figure is much higher) in 12 years is obviously a 50% chance of a fatality.

Put it this way, I said earlier I continue to enjoy some dangerous sports, but in 36 years of participating in them, I have sustained one accident.

If when I did them I knew there was a 50% chance of death, I wouldn't do it - I suspect none of us here would, it is considerably more dangerous than Russian Roultette (16.7% chance of death). If I knew there was a 275% chance of death, I would not be anywhere near the place.

I find seeing it as percentages brings home the real risk.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______

Just done a bit more digging (it took one Google to find the true figure for the Cheltenham festival is 25 deaths since 2006). A staggering 416% chance of a fatality. It makes Aintree look positively safe. I am starting to feel genuinely concerned about the acceptability factor of this aspect of this sport now. I was also right in saying I suspected the true figure to be much higher.

Having owned, bred and produced horses i feel i know a little knowledge here. 33 horses in 12 years i dont think an actual large amount. You have to think about the horse world as a whole. There are thousands of horses competing either in the race world, or showjumping or 3 day eventing. ALL of these sports carry a small risk. But also so does hacking out on a nice sunny day like today. The injuries horses sustain in instances like these CAN be fixed, a broken leg CAN be fixed but it would not be in the best interest of the horse as it is a long and dangerous thing to try, In no interest to the horse at all.

My point is horses look strong as they are so big and imposing but in a lot of ways due to their construction they can be fragile. The horses bred and trained to do NH and in any industry like this get the best trainers, riders, vets, nutrition and just over all care. They are pampered like only our very est athletes could wish to be pampered. They do something they genuinely LOVE. and with anything there is always a risk to both horse and rider but they could very easily be one of the many hundreds of cruelty cases that are left to suffer in a field with incorrect grazing appropriate to the horse, with no stabling, and left with illnesses that they suffer with.

I think this sport is so emotive as we see the horses in one moment looking full of like full of itself wanting to get on with it and the next a black screen comes out and the horse is destroyed. but that horse died doing something it loved to do, it will not have suffered a horse when it breaks a leg or any other painful injury emits a pain endorphin in its body so it doesnt feel pain. so in those few moments whilst the vet and owner make the decision what is best the horse will not be suffering.

I feel sorry for the owners, trainers, and stable hands no doubt when they got back to the yard and saw the empty stables they were truly devastated. I they probably think if only....but they will know what a good life that horse had led.

[Guest]

Re: Grand National 2012 Thread

Having owned, bred and produced horses i feel i know a little knowledge here. 33 horses in 12 years i dont think an actual large amount. You have to think about the horse world as a whole. There are thousands of horses competing either in the race world, or showjumping or 3 day eventing. ALL of these sports carry a small risk. But also so does hacking out on a nice sunny day like today. The injuries horses sustain in instances like these CAN be fixed, a broken leg CAN be fixed but it would not be in the best interest of the horse as it is a long and dangerous thing to try, In no interest to the horse at all.

My point is horses look strong as they are so big and imposing but in a lot of ways due to their construction they can be fragile. The horses bred and trained to do NH and in any industry like this get the best trainers, riders, vets, nutrition and just over all care. They are pampered like only our very est athletes could wish to be pampered. They do something they genuinely LOVE. and with anything there is always a risk to both horse and rider but they could very easily be one of the many hundreds of cruelty cases that are left to suffer in a field with incorrect grazing appropriate to the horse, with no stabling, and left with illnesses that they suffer with.

I think this sport is so emotive as we see the horses in one moment looking full of like full of itself wanting to get on with it and the next a black screen comes out and the horse is destroyed. but that horse died doing something it loved to do, it will not have suffered a horse when it breaks a leg or any other painful injury emits a pain endorphin in its body so it doesnt feel pain. so in those few moments whilst the vet and owner make the decision what is best the horse will not be suffering.

I feel sorry for the owners, trainers, and stable hands no doubt when they got back to the yard and saw the empty stables they were truly devastated. I they probably think if only....but they will know what a good life that horse had led.

Hi

Obviously bow to superior knowledge in this but 33 horses in 12 years sounds like an avaerage of just over 3 horses per race, is this acceptable.

As for it being something they love to do, are we sure, i would say they love to wander free and make hay with lady horses,

Personally i think there is a degree of anthropamorohasis goes on when people talk about this subject.

I have a limited degree of experiance with them ,we had a couple when i was growing up , the hunt used to go through our garden every year.

In my opinion they are as thick as planks, IQ slightly less than a sheep.

What they do have though is a great deal of heart and the ability to give an instinctual and unwavering trust in the human they have become attached to.

That human can then make them jump over fences even though their every
instinct tells them to go arround, they will run into crowds waiving sticks or even machine gun fire.

They will also run beyond there physical ability if commanded untill their legs break or their hearts stop.

Thats why we should do our best to ensure that they are not badly treated.

only my opinion.

Peter

[labman]

Re: Grand National 2012 Thread

I wonder if the horses were on the starting line, jockeyless, no starting gun, no crowd - would they naturally run and race, jump the fences?

I doubt it, but I have no more knowledge of horses than I do of astrophysics or even the impressive word anthropamorohasis until I looked it up lol!

I suspect they'd wander around.

Surely this would be the true test of how much a horse enjoys doing it. Does a horse left in a field with a jump go and jump it for pleasure occasionally? I doubt it.

[Hurricane Puffrose]

Re: Grand National 2012 Thread

yeh they do occasionally, the mad fit takes em and off they go.

sometimes if they are in the mood, they have a mad race across the paddock just cos they can, its lovely to watch. I used to sit on Grannys farm in Ireland and just watch them. normally they mooch about and chew on grass, then a young colt will eye up the fence and take a charge at it, sometimes the foals will have little races amongst themselves, and the mothers, like human mothers, shake their heads like "kids these days!"

normally this is accompanied with a look of either aint i clever or what did i do that for? they are quite amusiing animals, especially when they have been caught rolling on the grass and give you the look of I wouldnt do something so undignified!!

[Guest]

Re: Grand National 2012 Thread

yeh they do occasionally, the mad fit takes em and off they go.

sometimes if they are in the mood, they have a mad race across the paddock just cos they can, its lovely to watch. I used to sit on Grannys farm in Ireland and just watch them. normally they mooch about and chew on grass, then a young colt will eye up the fence and take a charge at it, sometimes the foals will have little races amongst themselves, and the mothers, like human mothers, shake their heads like "kids these days!"

normally this is accompanied with a look of either aint i clever or what did i do that for? they are quite amusiing animals, especially when they have been caught rolling on the grass and give you the look of I wouldnt do something so undignified!!

[quote=labman;259496]
I doubt it, but I have no more knowledge of horses than I do of astrophysics or even the impressive word anthropamorohasis until I looked it up lol!

quote]

Hi
Yes its true lovely creatures, bloody hard work though, up at 5am mixing the feed , home from school mucking out(yuk) then brushing and grooming cleaning the tack.

Yes labman sorry about that my english teacher used to say , Peter shouldnt you learn how to spell the little words before you start trying to use the big ones.

Peter