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OFT v Banks Judgment 25th November 2009 - 9.45am- Supreme Court - Test case

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  • Re: OFT v Banks Judgment 25th November 2009 - 9.45am- Supreme Court - Test case

    Update on the Govan Law site on attempts to keep Scottish bank charge cases in the small claims court.

    Govan Law Centre


    Scotland’s Cabinet Secretary for Justice has refused to review the problems thrown up in Scottish bank charge cases, and denied there is any problem in Scots being able to take their bank to court to try and recover unfair overdraft charges. Recently, Scots using the accessible and consumer friendly small claims system have had their claims remitted to the ordinary sheriff court, at the request of UK banks, where legal expenses are potentially unlimited.

    Following access to justice problems identified in the case of Walls v. Santander UK plc the Shadow Cabinet Secretary for Justice, Richard Baker MSP, raised concerns over access to justice in such cases with Kenny MacAskill MSP. In a written response, Mr MacAskill said ‘I do not accept the argument that ordinary citizens in Scotland are denied basic rights to access justice’ and refuted any suggestion that there was a problem for Scots trying to recover unfair bank charges through the small claims court.

    Mr MacAskill endorsed the sheriff’s conclusion in Walls v. Santander, that Scotland’s current civil court structure and legal aid system provided ‘sufficient’ access to justice from a human rights perspective. Mrs Walls has since lodged an application with the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. Mr MacAskill also stated that he was unable to review the small claims rules due to his ongoing consideration of Lord Gill’s Scottish Civil Court Review.

    GLC's Mike Dailly said: “The Justice Secretary’s denial is a mantra which makes no sense. It displays an arrogance and failure to grasp some fundamental facts and principles. UK banks are successfully moving small claim bank charge cases to the ordinary sheriff court, and Scottish consumers are faced with dropping their claims for fear of expenses, or trying to get legal aid if they can – and even then, possibly having to pay a contribution to the legal aid board bigger than their claim”.

    “What is particularly puzzling is that Mr. MacAskill refuses to accept any concern whatsoever about access to justice, but our client (Mrs Walls) would have had to drop her claim, had we not been able to get her case sisted pending an application to the European Court of Human Rights".

    "The whole point of the small claims court is to provide access to justice for citizens without fear of cost: a remedy which is proportionate in cost to the level of the monetary dispute. But that fair principle of proportionality is being knocked out of the ball park by the current practice of UK banks in bank charge litigation. We don’t have class actions in Scotland, so individual consumers are finding it impractical or impossible to challenge bank charges in court”.

    “Kenny MacAskill could easily fix this problem by changing the rules on expenses. We’ve suggested the cap on small claims expenses could travel with the case where it is remitted to the ordinary sheriff court. However, the Justice Secretary says he cannot even look at this issue because he is considering the Scottish Civil Courts Review. That is a non-excuse, which sends a very clear message to the 1 in 5 Scots hit with overdraft charges: the Justice Secretary isn’t interested”.

    Comment


    • Re: OFT v Banks Judgment 25th November 2009 - 9.45am- Supreme Court - Test case

      To be honest I agree with Mr MacAskill. The Scottish system has been changed, Jan 08, to allow higher claims (up to £3000) into the small claims track and this was ''promoted as'' partly due to allow more bank charges cases into that track at a time when they were thougnt to be simple straightforward questions of penalties. Cases more complex below that threshold, and the previous £1000, would still have been put into ordinary cause. This does protect both parties involved in the litigation against incurring unlimited legal costs to fight a very complicated case with a relatively low value. It is entirely different suing someone who owes you money, where there is a contract that has been defaulted on for instance, which is clear cut and use of the courts has become a necessary part of the process of reclaiming that money, to using low value claims to avoid any risk of costs whilst forcing the other party to defend the claim - however vexatious/misled it may be, without any risk to the claimant or being able to recoup their costs. Defendants require protection from costs as well as claimants, and that goes whether they are huge international corporations or Joe Bloggs the plumber. If that protection wasnt there individuals with a bone to pick with a company/individual could take extremely complex cases to court which are entirely without merit and through appeals and using their human rights for the law to be tested/applied etc costings defendants massive costs in defending with no opportunity to recoup those costs.

      The other case has legal aid, so it will cost whoever pays for legal aid, to take that case through the courts so both parties are protected.

      I dont see why it should be any different because it is 'bank charges'.

      Probably not a particularly popular view but just my thoughts anyway.

      Oh and plus
      Mr MacAskill also stated that he was unable to review the small claims rules due to his ongoing consideration of Lord Gill’s Scottish Civil Court Review.
      is probably the main element of that heavily weighted story.
      #staysafestayhome

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      Comment


      • Re: OFT v Banks Judgment 25th November 2009 - 9.45am- Supreme Court - Test case

        I agree too.


        Originally posted by Amethyst View Post

        The other case has legal aid, so it will cost whoever pays for legal aid, to take that case through the courts so both parties are protected.
        But legal aid won't protect the claimant against costs awarded against them should they lose.

        Comment


        • Re: OFT v Banks Judgment 25th November 2009 - 9.45am- Supreme Court - Test case

          Never understood how it worked tbh even back when we were looking at the GLO. YOu have to pay an amount of the costs relating to your income if you lose over a period?, the legal aid , just kind of subs the sols to do the work in the first place, if you win the sols are paid by the losing side. (probably entirely wrong but if you don't ask you don't find out lol)
          #staysafestayhome

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          • Re: OFT v Banks Judgment 25th November 2009 - 9.45am- Supreme Court - Test case

            http://www.slab.org.uk/getting_legal..._leaflet_5.pdf

            ''Legal aid usually covers only your own legal costs. If you lose your case, the court may order you to pay some or all of your opponent’s costs. But you can ask the court to limit the amount because you are on legal aid. The court decides what is reasonable for you to pay, taking into account all the circumstances of the case, the financial circumstances of you and your opponent, and the way you have both conducted your cases. The court can decide that you should pay nothing, but you will have to pay what the court decides. You may want to ask your solicitor for more
            information about this.''

            Comment


            • Re: OFT v Banks Judgment 25th November 2009 - 9.45am- Supreme Court - Test case

              ''The ongoing UK campaign against unfair bank charges, including Govan Law Centre's case work, will be featured on BBC 1's Rip-off Britain at 9.15am (following BBC Breakfast) on Monday, 29 November 2010. You can also watch the show on the BBC iplayer (episode 6) after the initial broadcast. ''

              Govan Law Centre: GLC on unfair bank charges on BBC 1's Rip-off Britain

              Comment


              • Re: OFT v Banks Judgment 25th November 2009 - 9.45am- Supreme Court - Test case

                Originally posted by EXC View Post
                ''The ongoing UK campaign against unfair bank charges, including Govan Law Centre's case work, will be featured on BBC 1's Rip-off Britain at 9.15am
                Watched the show and no mention of the ongoing UK campaign or GLC's case work.

                Comment


                • Re: OFT v Banks Judgment 25th November 2009 - 9.45am- Supreme Court - Test case

                  ''Sadly, the programme decided to take a soft approach and focus on peripheral issues around charges (e.g. communication concerns) as opposed to the tough question of whether the UK bank charging model was unfair in law, whether it was morally acceptable to exploit vulnerable consumers to subsidise better off customers, as well as overlooking the plight of thousands of UK consumers still trying to seek refunds of unfair charges.''

                  Govan Law Centre: Update: unfair bank charges on BBC 1's Rip-off Britain

                  I know I've said this before but the Supreme Court judgment ruled that any question of unfairness under 5.1 of UTCCR applies only to the balance between the individual bank and the individual customer (the parties to the contract) and does not apply to groups of consumers and groups of banks.

                  Comment


                  • Re: OFT v Banks Judgment 25th November 2009 - 9.45am- Supreme Court - Test case

                    It looks like the Sharp v Bank of Scotland case is dead in the water Govan Law Centre: Access to justice denied: Scottish Legal Aid Board kills off hope of reclaiming unfair bank charges in Scotland

                    Comment


                    • Re: OFT v Banks Judgment 25th November 2009 - 9.45am- Supreme Court - Test case

                      Dead in the water?

                      I wouldnt say GLC are taking that attitude, seems like they are planning on fighting all the way to the European courts

                      Comment


                      • Re: OFT v Banks Judgment 25th November 2009 - 9.45am- Supreme Court - Test case

                        Good morning all,


                        Yes I agree completely. If you read the full response I think it is very clear that this is a case that is certain to make it to the ECJ.

                        Mike Daily does not state that 'this is the end', indeed my impression is that this may be just he new beginning we have been hoping for.

                        My fingers are crossed!!

                        Best wishes and compliments of the season to everyone...:santawalk:

                        Dougal

                        Comment


                        • Re: OFT v Banks Judgment 25th November 2009 - 9.45am- Supreme Court - Test case

                          Yes,

                          Mike seems very determined and past results via ECJ have seemed far more just than anything we have had here

                          Comment


                          • Re: OFT v Banks Judgment 25th November 2009 - 9.45am- Supreme Court - Test case

                            Originally posted by ncf355 View Post
                            Dead in the water?

                            I wouldnt say GLC are taking that attitude, seems like they are planning on fighting all the way to the European courts
                            I'm not saying that their attitude is dead in the water, just the Sharp case as it was dependent on obtaining legal aid funding:

                            ''In the case of Sharp v. Bank of Scotland, the defender applied to remit the case to the ordinary court procedure. As our client is eligible for civil legal aid this was not a problem (legal aid is not available for small claims in Scotland, but it is for ordinary cause actions).''

                            Govan Law Centre: June 2010

                            In my view if they can't run a case for the want of £375 in legal aid funding it is futile to think they could mount a judicial review challenge let alone a case to the ECJ.

                            Comment


                            • Re: OFT v Banks Judgment 25th November 2009 - 9.45am- Supreme Court - Test case

                              Does the legal aid not cover the costs of losing as well as the claimants sols fees?
                              #staysafestayhome

                              Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

                              Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

                              Comment


                              • Re: OFT v Banks Judgment 25th November 2009 - 9.45am- Supreme Court - Test case

                                Ahh no it doesn't

                                If you lose the case, you may be ordered to pay the legal costs of the other side if the court considers this would be reasonable. Legal aid would not cover this.
                                So I assume the insurers have refused too ?

                                And importantly
                                The Scottish Legal Aid Board must agree that someone has a reasonable case before it will agree to providing civil legal aid.
                                Help with legal costs


                                So the legal aid is just to pay Govan ? Thought they would have done it FOC.
                                #staysafestayhome

                                Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

                                Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

                                Comment

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