HSBC defy Waiver (Adele v HSBC)

[EXC]

Re: HSBC defy Waiver (Adele v HSBC)

This is a draft for the OFT letter. I'm really not sure whether we should include the reference to the waiver conditions (or indeed write to the FSA at all) until we know if Adele is a hardship case and if not, whether the waiver conditions in my last post apply to a non-hardship case.




Kate Farrow
Office of Fait Trading

Hi Kate

I wish to report a breach of the OFT’s Debt Collection Guidance - July 2003 (updated December 2006) - by HSBC Bank PLC.
Please note I’m not certain that within the OFT you or your department handle such matters and if not I’d be grateful if you would pass this on to the relevant department.

The breach concerns a personal current account holder with a claim against HSBC for approximately £1900 for insufficient funds charges. In turn the bank is demanding £520 which comprises the claimants current overdraft despite acknowledging that the account is in dispute by virtue of the claimant’s unresolved unauthorised overdraft charges complaint.

It would seem clear that HSBC are in breach of at least 3 sections of the above OFT guidelines:

2.6h.
ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment.

2.8k.
not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or disputed debt.

2.8.
failing to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate, when a debt is queried or disputed, possibly resulting in debtors being wrongly pursued.

Additionally (although not strictly a matter for the OFT) HSBC would appear be flouting the conditions of the Waiver Direction guidance:

(b) the firm might not enforce debts against complainants in financial difficulty to the extent that these debts are made up of unauthorised overdraft charges.

What makes this breach particularly concerning is that the letter the claimant received from HSBC (attached) confirming the demand was written by a ‘senior manager’- as opposed to someone lower down the scale - indicating that the breach is less likely to be an error and more likely to be a policy decision.

I’d be grateful if you would acknowledge receipt of this letter and let me know what steps could be taken to resolve the matter.

Kind regards

[enaid]

Re: HSBC defy Waiver (Adele v HSBC)

Well FWIW Exc
I did the OFT with my letter, all it did was got noted, as they won't take any action for or help individuals. They only collect the info and when they have enough complaints they may act, although there is no indication how many complaints or what action they can eventually take in their letter.

FOS was also written to and they can not do anything without a final response from the firm you are complaining about. Now by the time you have figured out what a final response is and given the firm their 8 weeks to sort it and then go back to FOS you could well have given up the ghost or even be dead.

So IMHO the FSA should be told, no matter what the situation, if the Banks are breaking the rules of the Waiver. Other wise they will believe everything is Hunky Dory and it is far from it.
Don't shout at me if am talking carp lol, there are an awful lot of F's in there, had to bite me tongue.
Enaid x

[adele43]

Re: HSBC defy Waiver (Adele v HSBC)

thankyou sooo much all of you, especially amethyst for helping me with this.
This is all bank charges, and Yes, i am on incpacity benefit,and industrial injuries benefit, i dont use this account now..They dont seem bothered, but enjoy using bullying tactics.
If it wasnt for all of you, i wouldnt know what i was doing, so thankyou!
Adele x

[EXC]

Re: HSBC defy Waiver (Adele v HSBC)

Thanks Adele - you're welcome.

Can I just confirm - have you informed the bank that you are in hardship in relation to your claim and if so have they accepted your hardship status?

[adele43]

Re: HSBC defy Waiver (Adele v HSBC)

yes, i told them i wanted my claim looking at as i am now unemployed,and other debts are suffering,i also included a a copy of the oft's terms regarding financial hardship cases on which I am applying due to my debtors not being able to be paid.Therefore, I request that you give this matter your undivided attention to settle the matter. I e mailed a copy of the letter i sent to them to amethyst, dated 25th april. I am happy if you want to add this letter on here.
Adele

[EXC]

Re: HSBC defy Waiver (Adele v HSBC)

I would like to see the letter. It would strengthen the case with the FSA and I could include it with their letter.

I'd be tempted to copy HSBC in on the letters we send to the OFT & FSA in the hope it might nudge the bank into dropping the demand immediately and hopefully freezing the interest they are presumabley applying to the overdraft. In fact we really should be going on the attack for a refund or at least partial refund of the charges. What do you think?

[adele43]

Re: HSBC defy Waiver (Adele v HSBC)

Err..im not very wordly on these things fraid, thats probably why im easy target lol. Im very happy with whatever you decide, your the brains :lol:
Can you get a copy of the letters i e mailed amethyst, or do you want me to e mail them to you,
many thanx
Adele

[EXC]

Re: HSBC defy Waiver (Adele v HSBC)

Don't worry I'll ask Ame for a copy, amend the OFT letter to include it and draft a letter to the FSA with a view to get them sent off on Tuesday.

I'll speak to Ame and see what she thinks about copying HSBC in too.

For me this is a clear cut case of the bank flouting the waiver conditions on two grounds as they are not just demanding payment of disputed charges but ignoring your claim for hardship status.

[adele43]

Re: HSBC defy Waiver (Adele v HSBC)

Can never thank you all for what you are doing for me, your all very clever and brill! thankyou

[Amethyst]

Re: HSBC defy Waiver (Adele v HSBC)

I will forward the letters to EXC now Reading rest of thread.


Yes definately copy the complaints to HSBC.

Also in Adeles letter to HSBC I think we should add a little more about her specific hardship circumstances and nudging them on that.

[EXC]

Re: HSBC defy Waiver (Adele v HSBC)

Got em thanks.

Jeez isn't the demand letter heavy? The way they put the words ''DEBT COLLECTORS'', ''COURT'' and ''SOLICITORS'' in bold capital letters. Obviously designed to intimidate and instill fear. I had no idea these kind of demand letters were so sinister.

One question Ame - who should the letters be written from? Me on behalf of LB? Or Adele?

May as well do one for the Banking Code Standards Board too. It must contravene vast swathes of the banking code.

[Amethyst]

Re: HSBC defy Waiver (Adele v HSBC)

I think they should come from Adele.

I think in the future, once we get the FOI back that Nats has in re breaches of waiver complaints, depending on what it brings up, do a bundle of evidences back to them from LB.

[Curlyben]

Re: HSBC defy Waiver (Adele v HSBC)

Got em thanks.

Jeez isn't the demand letter heavy? The way they put the words ''DEBT COLLECTORS'', ''COURT'' and ''SOLICITORS'' in bold capital letters. Obviously designed to intimidate and instill fear. I had no idea these kind of demand letters were so sinister.

You think that's bad, you ought to see some of the colourful missives I get to deal with

[EXC]

Re: HSBC defy Waiver (Adele v HSBC)

I think they should come from Adele.
.

Ok but I think that with the OFT letter it might be better that I foward Adele's letter to KF myself as it might stand a better chance of getting attention.

I've amended the OFT letter accordingly and done one for the FSA which I think should go directly to the Waivers Team who I believe are responsible for overseeing the waiver conditions.

Can Ame/Adele let me know if the letters are ok and if the details are correct.

Having had a look at the banking code again I don't think there's much in the way of breaches and can't see that a letter to BCSB would really help.



FSA:

Dear Sir/Madam

I write to report a breach of the conditions of the FSA’s unauthorised overdraft Complaints Handling Waiver by HSBC Bank.

I am aware that the Financial Services Authority does not deal with individual complaints against the firms it regulates but I understand that it welcomes the reporting of evidence of non-compliance of the conditions banks are obliged to follow in respect of the waiver.

I have a complaint pending with HSBC disputing unauthorised overdraft fees amounting to the value of approximately £1900 which have been applied to my personal current account over the past 6 years. In turn the bank is demanding the immediate settlement of my overdraft of £520 despite acknowledging my unresolved complaint and being fully aware that I meet the criteria for being in financial hardship - my sole source of income being invalidity & industrial accident benefits.

I believe HSBC have breached section 15 (b) of the (current) Waiver Direction:

‘‘the firm might not enforce debts against complainants in financial difficulty to the extent that these debts are made up of unauthorised overdraft charges’’.

Also section 14 of the waiver direction states that ‘’Whilst this direction is in force, the firm has agreed with the FSA to have regard to its obligations under the general law and the provisions of the Code relating to relevant charges complaints (even if the firm is not a subscriber to the Code)’’ and although this dosen't specifically include the OFT's Debt Collection Guidance July 2003 (updated December 2006), the waiver doesn't exclude it and and as such HSBC would be in breach of the following sections:
2.6h.
ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are
disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment.

2.8k.
not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or
disputed debt.

2.8.
failing to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate, when a debt is
queried or disputed, possibly resulting in debtors being wrongly pursued.


Clearly by virtue of my unauthorised overdraft complaint the account is in dispute.

What makes this breach particularly concerning is that the letter I received from HSBC (attached) confirming the demand was written by a ‘senior manager’- as opposed to someone lower down the scale - indicating that the breach less likely to be an error and more likely to be a policy decision.

Finally and on a more general note, the FSA have repeatedly made clear that the purpose of the Complaints Handling Waiver is to suspend all disputes and County Court cases involving unauthorised overdraft charges pending the outcome of the test case, in the interests of consumers. The waiver could not perform this function equitably if it allowed banks to enforce the recovery of these charges while preventing consumers from challenging the legitimacy of them.

I attach the most recent correspondence with HSBC and have labelled the files by date for your assistance.

I would be very grateful if you would acknowledge receipt by return and provide me with confirmation that HSBC are in breach of their obligations in my case.

Your sincerely




OFT:


Dear Sir/Madam

I wish to report a breach of the OFT’s Debt Collection Guidance - July 2003 (updated December 2006), by HSBC Bank PLC.
Please note I’m not certain that within the OFT you or your department handle such matters and if not I’d be grateful if you would pass this on to the relevant department.

The breach concerns my claim against HSBC for approximately £1900 for insufficient funds charges. In turn the bank is demanding £520 which comprises my current overdraft despite acknowledging that the account is in dispute by virtue of my unresolved unauthorised overdraft charges complaint.

I am currently experiencing acute financial hardship and rely on incapacity & industrial injury benefit as my sole source of income.
It would seem clear that HSBC are in breach of at least 3 sections of the above OFT guidelines:

2.6h.
ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are
disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment.

2.8k.
not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or
disputed debt.

2.8.
failing to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate, when a debt is
queried or disputed, possibly resulting in debtors being wrongly pursued.

Additionally (although not strictly a matter for the OFT) HSBC would appear be flouting the conditions of the Waiver Direction guidance:

(b) the firm might not enforce debts against complainants in financial difficulty to the extent that these debts are made up of unauthorised overdraft charges.

What makes this breach particularly concerning is that the letter I received from HSBC (attached) confirming the demand was written by a ‘senior manager’- as opposed to someone lower down the scale - rendering the breach less likely to be an error and more likely to be a policy decision.


I’d be grateful if you would acknowledge receipt of this letter and give me some indication as to whether HSBC’s actions in my case amount to a breach of your guidelines.

Kind regards

[adele43]

Re: HSBC defy Waiver (Adele v HSBC)

wow, those are very good letters...from what i can understand lol..legality was never my good subject..thankyou for all the work you have put into this all of you
i bow down to you on me knees lol
Adele x