Oughtn't they know better?

[teaboy2]

Re: Oughtn't they know better?

HI
No my point is that all requests for data will be formal requests uder the DPA if there is a fee involved, just because you need not mention the act in the request does not mean that it is not a formal request.

Which is what i have been telling you all along - Though only request for all information or made specifically under the DPA by mention of the legislation are formal request. All requests that a business would normally deal with, within the normal course of their business operation are infromal and not formal and are not subject to a SAR meaning they can charge what they like for such requests that they normally deal with, within the nomal course of business.

Only request for say bank statements or individual docutment, basically anything that is not a request for all information maybe informal and in the majority of the case they are.

And it is not true that the SAR only applies to full disclosure, in fact part of the process involves negotiation as to exactly how much the subject requires to be disclosed it may only be a single document.

Errr, I never said it did only apply to full disclosure did i? no i don't think i did, only that they can only charge £10 minimum - You completely missing the point on this peter. Point is if i walk into a bank and verbally ask for a bank statement then as such a request is a request for information that a business would normally deal with, within the normal course of their business operation on a regular basis, then such a request is not subject to a request under the DPA or a SAR and they can charge whatever they like. Only time it is subect to the DPA is if you make a formal written request for one, which considering that would cost you £10 then your better off asking informally and paying £5, though it would depend on the actual amount your bank charges per statement.

As such your point on Negotiating is not relevant unless the request is made formally. You can request anything you want using a formal request whether is 1 document of all documents they hold - But it will still only cost no more than £10.

As such No company can charge you more then £10 when you request All information, and a request for all information does not need to be nagotiated as its means what it says i.e. ALL INFORMATION. Any company attempting to charge you more than £10 for full disclosure of all information is doing so in contradiction of the DPA, and probably in breach of it.

As i said peter this is going round in circles now.

[teaboy2]

Re: Oughtn't they know better?

To clarify:

If i went into a bank and asked the cashier for a copy of a statement for the period of july 2010 then that would be an informal request (that was not made under the DPA or under a SAR) as it would be a request they deal with regularly within the normal operation of their business. But they can charge me whatever they like for it be £5 or £30

If however, i put my request in writing and sent it to them, then that would indeed be a SAR as it would be a formal request if made in writing, and i would have to pay no more then £10 for the bank statement though they may waive the fee.

The Qouted term in post 1 was as follows "You also have the right to request a copy of all the personal information we hold about you. To do this, please write to our registered office address enclosing a cheque for £25 payable to Silverpoint Delivery Solutions to cover our administrative costs.

Read more at: Oughtn't they know better? - Legal Beagles Consumer Forum

See the bit where it says "please write"? Well they are telling you that you have to make a formal request for all information, which means such a request would automatically fall under the DPA as a SAR and as such the statutory fee you would have to pay is £10 and no more - Yet they are clearly asking you to pay £25 for the privilege of making a formal request which would be covered by the DPA as a SAR.

So in otherwords what their saying is you need to make a formal SAR, yet they will not honour it unless you pay £25, a clear breach of the DPA if you ask me.

[Guest]

Re: Oughtn't they know better?

NOthing wrong with going round in circles if it clarifies a point or two i find.
Just putting something in writing does not make it a formal request under the act though does it? but i think i see what you mean.

Anyway lets se what they come back with, should be worth reading.

Peter

[teaboy2]

Re: Oughtn't they know better?

NOthing wrong with going round in circles if it clarifies a point or two i find.
Just putting something in writing does not make it a formal request under the act though does it? but i think i see what you mean.

Anyway lets se what they come back with, should be worth reading.

Peter

Put the point is this:

Section -
(2)A data controller is not obliged to supply any information under subsection (1) unless he has received—
(a)a request in writing, and
(b)except in prescribed cases, such fee (not exceeding the prescribed maximum) as he may require.


That itself makes a request for data, when put in writing, a formal legal request which they are obliged to comply with. Therefore it can not possibly be anything but a formal request when it is made in writing or at least that how i view it, because if am wrong then that means all legal letters, where a receiptient is legally obliged to comply, are not formal but informal. which would be like saying the law is not formal but informal lol

[charitynjw]

Re: Oughtn't they know better?

To add to the mix

Some data might not be covered by the DPA (ie T & C's for a certain period - doesn't identify a living person, does it?)

Just thought I'd mention it.

I'll get my coat........

[Guest]

Re: Oughtn't they know better?

Put the point is this:

Section -
(2)A data controller is not obliged to supply any information under subsection (1) unless he has received—
(a)a request in writing, and
(b)except in prescribed cases, such fee (not exceeding the prescribed maximum) as he may require.


That itself makes a request for data, when put in writing, a formal legal request which they are obliged to comply with. Therefore it can not possibly be anything but a formal request when it is made in writing or at least that how i view it, because if am wrong then that means all legal letters, where a receiptient is legally obliged to comply, are not formal but informal. which would be like saying the law is not formal but informal lol

Yes but the requst has to be for a a sar this isnt. any requerst wont do, it may well be that you are right and it is just a straightforward case of them trying to charge an inflated statutory fee, or it may be that they are not regarding this as an SAR at all but just a request for information through their own internal propceedures.
This is not against the law they are offering a service is not illegal for therm to do so.
As i said lets wait and see
Peter


It may not pan out like that anyway, lets wait and see.
Petr

[Guest]

Re: Oughtn't they know better?

To add to the mix

Some data might not be covered by the DPA (ie T & C's for a certain period - doesn't identify a living person, does it?)

Just thought I'd mention it.

I'll get my coat........

HI
I just have a feeling that there is more to this than them just trying to rip off the punter for £15.
Personally the more i think about it the more i think they maybe trying to get around the whole DPA protection,

I am sure they must know the fee for a DPA they are solicitors arn't they, i have a feeling that when you ask the question of why is you SAR £25 they will say it isnt an SAR ,an SAR costs £10. our service for providing information about your account costs £25.

Peter

[teaboy2]

Re: Oughtn't they know better?

Yes but the requst has to be for a a sar this isnt. any requerst wont do, it may well be that you are right and it is just a straightforward case of them trying to charge an inflated statutory fee, or it may be that they are not regarding this as an SAR at all but just a request for information through their own internal propceedures.
This is not against the law they are offering a service is not illegal for therm to do so.
As i said lets wait and see
Peter


It may not pan out like that anyway, lets wait and see.
Petr

Peter a written request for information no matter how it is written - IS A SAR as you are clearly requesting access for information about yourself "The Subject".

As i said before, if i made the written request for the bank statements i would have to pay the minimum fee of £10 - That is regardless of the quantity of statements i requested be it 1 - 100 copies or past statements

If i went in and asked verbally i would have to pay £5 each as a verbal request is not covered by the DPA and is not a SAR as it is an informal request.

But to stop going round in further circles, i agree - lets wait and see.

[teaboy2]

Re: Oughtn't they know better?

HI
I just have a feeling that there is more to this than them just trying to rip off the punter for £15.
Personally the more i think about it the more i think they maybe trying to get around the whole DPA protection,

I am sure they must know the fee for a DPA they are solicitors arn't they, i have a feeling that when you ask the question of why is you SAR £25 they will say it isnt an SAR ,an SAR costs £10. our service for providing information about your account costs £25.

Peter

There not solicitors Peter, they are a courier firm that specialises in delivering legal and corporate mail etc - though i see were your coming from and i expect the connection with HFO and Roxbourgh and Turnbulls is certain strong enough to say they are solicitors, and that Turnbulls should know better. But given their history i wouldnt put it past this lot to try get round it and charge more than they should.

[Guest]

Re: Oughtn't they know better?

Peter a written request for information no matter how it is written - IS A SAR as you are clearly requesting access for information about yourself "The Subject".

As i said before, if i made the written request for the bank statements i would have to pay the minimum fee of £10 - That is regardless of the quantity of statements i requested be it 1 - 100 copies or past statements

If i went in and asked verbally i would have to pay £5 each as a verbal request is not covered by the DPA and is not a SAR as it is an informal request.

But to stop going round in further circles, i agree - lets wait and see.

I think they will probably just say it was a typo when it comes down to it, the question is what powers do the various bodies have to punish, as i say i do not think they have broke any law, thre is nothing in the statute that i can see that says they must regard all writen requests as a Sar under the act irrespetive of if the request says so. The argument about them having to presume it is an SAR if it is for full disclosure with respect does not stand up , again no evidence to confirm. My bank insists on requests for individual statements by post(in writhing) together with a fee of £5 per copy they do not regard them as a SAR as i said earlier, nor do they have to. THe act does say:

9)If a court is satisfied on the application of any person who has made a request under the foregoing provisions of this section that the data controller in question has failed to comply with the request in contravention of those provisions, the court may order him to comply with the request.

Not just if they ask for information.

Peter

[CleverClogs]

Re: Oughtn't they know better?

Personally the more i think about it the more i think they maybe trying to get around the whole DPA protection,

I am sure they must know the fee for a DPA they are solicitors arn't they,

I refer you to the title of this thread.

i have a feeling that when you ask the question of why is you SAR £25 they will say it isnt an SAR ,an SAR costs £10.

If the email gets a response, I will post it here.

our service for providing information about your account costs £25.

After you've twisted the skins off your farts, do you tan them like leather and sew them together into a cloak? :rofl:

[CleverClogs]

Re: Oughtn't they know better?

They're not solicitors Peter, they are a courier firm that specialises in delivering legal and corporate mail etc

So one might suppose, yet one of their web pages - link - states:

Our principal activities are the supply of electical services and associated activities.

Do they deliver boxes of electrons or do they mean their business is rather shocking?

[teaboy2]

Re: Oughtn't they know better?

I think they will probably just say it was a typo when it comes down to it, the question is what powers do the various bodies have to punish, as i say i do not think they have broke any law, thre is nothing in the statute that i can see that says they must regard all writen requests as a Sar under the act irrespetive of if the request says so. The argument about them having to presume it is an SAR if it is for full disclosure with respect does not stand up , again no evidence to confirm. My bank insists on requests for individual statements by post(in writhing) together with a fee of £5 per copy they do not regard them as a SAR as i said earlier, nor do they have to. THe act does say:

9)If a court is satisfied on the application of any person who has made a request under the foregoing provisions of this section that the data controller in question has failed to comply with the request in contravention of those provisions, the court may order him to comply with the request.

Not just if they ask for information.

Peter

Again your missing the point, a request (written of verbal) for a single statement would be an informal request (that was not made under the DPA) - Simply because in this case it would be a request they deal with regularly within the normal operation of their business. Unless you specifically made mention of the DPA in your request which only a muppet would do as it would cost you £10 for the single statement instead of the £5 they charge - So yes they can charge you £5 and treat your request as informal in this particular case of requesting a single statement.

And therefore the data controller can judge your written request for a single statement as not being a formal request under the DPA/SAR but an informal request for a statement as it is something they deal with regularly (almost daily) within the normal operation of their business. So they can charge £5 or whatever they like for such a request

However a request for All data/information they hold or request that falls outside of what they deal with during course of normal business orperations, does fall under the DPA and must be treated as a formal request when made in writing to which they must comply with upon the reciept of the minimum fee of £10. I.e. requesting all statements for the last 6 years (which is not a request for all information they hold) would be something they do not deal with on a regular basis during the normal operations of there business and is therefore a formal request under the DPA/SAR and a fee of £10 must be paid rather than £5 for each individual statement from the last 6 years.

[Guest]

Re: Oughtn't they know better?

However a request for All data/information they hold or request that falls outside of what they deal with during course of normal business orperations, does fall under the DPA and must be treated as a formal request when made in writing to which they must comply with upon the reciept of the minimum fee of £10. I.e. requesting all statements for the last 6 years (which is not a request for all information they hold) would be something they do not deal with on a regular basis during the normal operations of there business and is therefore a formal request under the DPA/SAR and a fee of £10 must be paid rather than £5 for each individual statement from the last 6 years.[/LEFT]

Again i find this very interesting and it may well be so but, could you point me to the legislation that states, the above, and also what defines"normal business practice". Surely if it is in their t and cs it would be their normal practice, so according to your logic it would be OK?
Not trying to be obtuse just trying to understand your argument.

You see to me for a request to be made under sny act or legislation you normally need to let the creditor know which law he is supposed to be complying with, dont you.

Peter

[CleverClogs]

Re: Oughtn't they know better?

Not trying to be obtuse

Quite.

You appear to have succeeded. :tinysmile_grin_t: