How much trouble am I in?

[Openlaw15]

Re: How much trouble am I in?

Why?

Di

Well, if the property were affected by a joint tenancy - it means the legal interest and the beneficial interest are owned together, so no person has any land individually unless the JT has been severed. So, unless the beneficial joint tenancy has been broken (severed), there is no property interest for the husband to give to someone else, ie the employer/ debtor. Not only that if the JT is not severed it means the employer could have debt interests against both husband and wife.

[Openlaw15]

Re: How much trouble am I in?

Thanks. The total amount I have taken is just over £2000, it's £2200 to be exact. I have no explanation for it. I don't gamble, I am not depressed, we don't have any money worries (well no different than anybody else). I took the £800 to pay for a weekend away to London with my wife and some friends.

The first time was a genuine refund which I processed prior to a customer returning a faulty item. The money was waiting but the customer never showed up. Two weeks later, and after the monthly audits, the money was still sat there in my office, stupidly I took it, and nobody said anything, it just seemed like free money. So like a moron I did it again a few weeks later, but this time I just made up that a regular customer had returned a monthly order and forged their signature on the docket. I sort the stocktake anyway so covering up the missing returns was easy."

The question is whose money is it if the customer abandons their ownership/ title interest? It's like if you're a security guard and say a laptop is left at the premises and you have no way to know whose property it is, who benefits the gift - is the employer's - who pays your wages - or can you claim a right to it. It's an interesting legal question I think. In your case is it your gift or the company's? Theft is an intention to permanently deprive the owner of property. If the prosecution can't get you on theft charges they'll get you on fraud, ie misrepresentation for a gain. Technically, there is a misrepresentation for your gain, and this is all that is required as the law is 'ie your gain or another's loss.'

You may have a part defence that you genuinely believed it was a gift but when you fabricated a customer is when you were overtly committing fraud.


The whole thing just got out of hand. All our friends seem to have endless money, trips abroad, new cars, all that stuff. I just got tired of only ever managing to cover the bills with nothing left over, stupid I know. When the London trip was being discussed something in me just snapped I guess, I just wanted to feel "flush" for a change, so I took the money, I have no real excuse."

Just say you got carried away as no one claimed the money. There is an actual criminal defence of 'losing control' - it normally applies to fighting but I think it's broad enough for fraud as technically you did lose control, for instance you lost control of your ability to think like a rational person which culminated in you adopting a different character to your normal, law-abiding self.

"The seriousness of this is beginning to dawn on me now. I have always been so hard working, never claimed dole or anything. Since I was 17 I have worked full time, proud to be able to pay my own way. My brother in law was saying just last week how I should apply for the Police next time his force is taking on, he said I would have had a great chance of getting in (not now though) STUPID STUPID STUPID."

THIS WHOLE THING WILL BREAK MY WIFES HEART.

I have let her down so bad it kills me. When I think back to all the courses and training I have had over the years, all the contacts and knowledge I have of the industry, all means nothing now. I am not looking for sympathy, I did wrong, fair enough, I deserve what's coming.

Misrepresentation for a gain: this is clearly fraud and not theft.

NB these ideas apply if the police/ prosecution get involved.

[Anthony72]

Re: How much trouble am I in?

Do not worry about a charge on your property or anything like that, for that the employer would need to take legal action and they will not want their poor controls plastered all over the press. It is possible that the court could give an order to recover the money but if you have no job it is highly unlikely, this is aimed at people who make money from drugs or very large scale frauds that affect individuals

Please try not to worry.

[JulieM]

Re: How much trouble am I in?

Icarus

if I may be candid
There is no judgement on my part but I echo what has been said about confessing all to your employer and begging forgiveness. Well maybe not all but what they know.

If the police get involved make sure you use the duty solicitor, everyone is entitled to representation , if you have no income it continues if your Liberty is at risk. I am not saying it is at all likely just a very remote possibility I MO.

Again in if the police get involved take the advice of a qualified lawyer and not someone who you really do not know . Openlaw has studied law at degree level but according to him never practised or qualified to practise so his comments are very theoretical .

I can assure you that an early plea does make a difference, sentencing these days is very much a case of look in the book and see where the offence sits , take mitigation and aggravation into account and Bobs your uncle , a sentence pops out. It is aimed at providing consistency although judges do have some discretion. If you have ever been in a magistrates court, or crown come to that, the judge or magistrates takes guidance from the clerk who will tell them starting and mid point sentences.

I used to work for a solicitor and have accompanied people I know to court. Please try not to worry.

As celestine says feel free to rant or unload anytime. Let us know how the disciplinary goes.

[charitynjw]

Re: How much trouble am I in?

Re your employment questions.

Can you resign?
Yes, at any time.

Can you avoid the disciplinary?
Very unlikely.
It is, of course, up to the employer, but usually misconduct involving dishonesty goes to the root of the employment contract, & is usually classed as Gross Misconduct.
Although the employer still technically needs to conduct a fair (reasonable) investigation etc., I suspect it will be a formality, & a foregone conclusion.
Are you in a union?

[Openlaw15]

Re: How much trouble am I in?

Do not worry about a charge on your property or anything like that, for that the employer would need to take legal action and they will not want their poor controls plastered all over the press. It is possible that the court could give an order to recover the money but if you have no job it is highly unlikely, this is aimed at people who make money from drugs or very large scale frauds that affect individuals

Please try not to worry.

Actually, the court could make an order to take the amount from any unemployment benefits he gets. This is £2,000+ we're talking about, not £200. The more chance of settling this with the employer the less likely they will be to institute criminal proceedings, ie reporting it to the police/ prosecution/ conviction. The employer could be waiting forever to have the debt paid if he loses his job so it seems this is most unlikely the employer will accept anything other than security as said charge. The better remedy for the employer is a charge on the property that acquires interest as adequate security. I hardly think this is headline news for the media - it's the employers civil remedy against an employee committing fraud. The alternative is that the employer keeps you on until you have paid the amounts back. The problem with this eventuality is that you were charged with responsibility as a manager yet breached the employer's trust. This disciplinary is almost certainly going to result in a dismissal. You could say you are so sorry and will accept a demotion, where you have no responsibility whatsoever. The problem here for the employer is that he'll be doing you a favour, so he's unlikely to.

[Diana M]

Re: How much trouble am I in?

How the mortgage will be paid after next week is a mystery right

Why not approach this problem in two stages.

First work out what's the best way to manage your 'exit' from the company on Friday. And then look at the possible consequences of your actions if the police become involved after that.

If you resign from your job you may face a 26 week sanction before you can claim Benefits.

If you're dismissed for misconduct the sanction is normally 13 weeks before you can claim Benefits.

In both scenarios you may be able to plead 'Hardship' since neither you nor your wife will have any income.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/wo...-and-benefits/

Di

[Diana M]

Re: How much trouble am I in?

if the property were affected by a joint tenancy - it means the legal interest and the beneficial interest are owned together, so no person has any land individually unless the JT has been severed. So, unless the beneficial joint tenancy has been broken (severed), there is no property interest for the husband to give to someone else, ie the employer/ debtor. Not only that if the JT is not severed it means the employer could have debt interests against both husband and wife.

I'm not sure I can agree with that statement.

Are you suggesting that the employer could have a claim against the OP's wife's interest in the property even if any charge registered at Land Registry (voluntarily or otherwise) was only a Restriction?

Although this is all a bit academic at the moment since we don't know if the property is in joint names and/or whether it is a (Beneficial) Joint Tenancy or a Tenants in Common situation.

Di

[wales01man]

Re: How much trouble am I in?

Is this thread running away with itself?
The OP has not been dismissed yet and Police are not involved advice should be to tell his wife she needs to know sooner than later and to advise him on what he can do to help if and when he loses the job.
From reading local court reports the OP IF CONVICTED may get a community order suspended sentence and an order to pay money back prison seems a last resort for serial offenders this guy is a first offender

[Openlaw15]

Re: How much trouble am I in?

I'm not sure I can agree with that statement.

Are you suggesting that the employer could have a claim against the OP's wife's interest in the property even if any charge registered at Land Registry (voluntarily or otherwise) was only a Restriction?

Although this is all a bit academic at the moment since we don't know if the property is in joint names and/or whether it is a (Beneficial) Joint Tenancy or a Tenants in Common situation.

Di

the property charge attaches to the property not the people who own it, but if the beneficial tenancy is severed, they each have share for 3 party interest

[Openlaw15]

Re: How much trouble am I in?

I'm not sure I can agree with that statement.

Are you suggesting that the employer could have a claim against the OP's wife's interest in the property even if any charge registered at Land Registry (voluntarily or otherwise) was only a Restriction?

Although this is all a bit academic at the moment since we don't know if the property is in joint names and/or whether it is a (Beneficial) Joint Tenancy or a Tenants in Common situation.

Di

It's likely the property is in joint names via joint tenancy given he is married, as this is the presumption at equity unless there are express terms stating 'beneficial tenancy in common.' Only a business normally has a tenancy in common at equity, ie there is this presumption. Look at it another way, why is the 'restriction' noted on the land register under absolute ownership when there is a successful land charge on the particular property? It's because the law states the joint tenancy must be severed before it can realise into two separate parts. The effect of JT severance is tenancy in common. The JT protects the couple if one of them dies, ie husband dies so property transfers to wife under the 'survivor rules.'. If there were a tenancy in common is means the Will applies and not survivor rules so the property doesn't pass to the survivor.

[Openlaw15]

Re: How much trouble am I in?

I have been incredibly stupid. I was suspended from my job yesterday afternoon. I work for a major chain store on the shop floor, I am a shift manager.

The suspension is in relation to fraudulent refunds (I am guilty, no arguments there). The amounts total just over £2000 and cover a period of around 18 months. The individual amounts vary from £250 to £800. I processed refunds using genuine customer details but then took the cash myself.

I have worked for the company for 7 years and have no previous convictions, not even a parking ticket. I have been asked to attend a meeting next Friday, I am guessing I will be dismissed but don't know if the police are involved.

Can I resign and avoid the disciplinary? If the police get involved will I be arrested? What will happen in court?

How difficult will it be to get another job? I am 29, my wife thinks I am on annual leave and I am barely keeping things together. I can't talk any friends or family, they would be appalled at what I have done. The money was spent on weekends away and car repairs, nothing extravagant.

Listen, the law permits you to pay your mortgage off. If it comes to it you can postpone some mortgage payments with an agreement with your lender. As long's your property has good equity the bank's security in it (the mortgage) is quite safe. Even if the bank tried to evict you it would need a court's Order of Possession, in most cases. There is also legal representation at the county court who can advise you want to say on the day. Try not to worry about the mortgage, just keep paying as you are doing now.

[Openlaw15]

Re: How much trouble am I in?

Thanks. The total amount I have taken is just over £2000, it's £2200 to be exact. I have no explanation for it. I don't gamble, I am not depressed, we don't have any money worries (well no different than anybody else). I took the £800 to pay for a weekend away to London with my wife and some friends.

The first time was a genuine refund which I processed prior to a customer returning a faulty item. The money was waiting but the customer never showed up. Two weeks later, and after the monthly audits, the money was still sat there in my office, stupidly I took it, and nobody said anything, it just seemed like free money. So like a moron I did it again a few weeks later, but this time I just made up that a regular customer had returned a monthly order and forged their signature on the docket. I sort the stocktake anyway so covering up the missing returns was easy.

The whole thing just got out of hand. All our friends seem to have endless money, trips abroad, new cars, all that stuff. I just got tired of only ever managing to cover the bills with nothing left over, stupid I know. When the London trip was being discussed something in me just snapped I guess, I just wanted to feel "flush" for a change, so I took the money, I have no real excuse.

The seriousness of this is beginning to dawn on me now. I have always been so hard working, never claimed dole or anything. Since I was 17 I have worked full time, proud to be able to pay my own way. My brother in law was saying just last week how I should apply for the Police next time his force is taking on, he said I would have had a great chance of getting in (not now though) STUPID STUPID STUPID.

THIS WHOLE THING WILL BREAK MY WIFES HEART.

I have let her down so bad it kills me. When I think back to all the courses and training I have had over the years, all the contacts and knowledge I have of the industry, all means nothing now. I am not looking for sympathy, I did wrong, fair enough, I deserve what's coming.

This is not the end of the world. You need to stop putting pressure on yourself. It's good to know what type of outcomes are possible or likely, but it's to prepare you. Look, you've made a serious mistake, so what none of us are perfect and make mistakes. Now it's about trying to repair the damage. My advice, if I were you, is to compartmentalise things, so that there would be separate problems with separate solutions. Use one box for the employment and deal with this as and when required. Use a second box for the police etc and deal with the problem if it arises. For the mortgage, use a third box and deal with this as it arises. By doing this you're taking all the pressure away from your self instead have dealing with it all in your head. Stop saying you deserve all that's coming, no you do not!!! If the system wants to fight you for your wrong fair enough, but don't you beat your self up too, so to speak.

[Anthony72]

Re: How much trouble am I in?

Best of luck for tomorrow, do let us know what happens if you can face it

Please believe me when I say that in the grand scheme of things, a £2000 fraud against a company is not really a huge amount

These are the sentencing guidelines if the worst comes to the worst
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk..._guideline.pdf

And here are the reductions for an early guilty plea
https://consult.justice.gov.uk/digit...lty%20Plea.pdf

Remember it may not even come to that

If you can offer anything in way of an offer of repaying the money , even £5 a week it will go a long way if the worst case scenario