Son caught shop lifting

[Openlaw15]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

Hi i didnt know he could be charged with anything unless he was found guilty of anything. The requisition letter we recieved today states it is with regards to a charge of theft of an ecig juice worth £2.50. The duty solicitor was useless and said very little about what would happen next. He then sent me a letter to confirm the interview and his presence and details of fees should i need him again. No thanks...i am making an appointment with a defense solicitor tommorrow woth a view to speak with him. He did say thought that he wont recieve any details of his case until the morning of the hearing. So it looks like we're going in totaly unprepaired. He has not seen footage, seem any of the interview transcript nothing. How can he defend him if he has nothing to go on. I was hoping he would scrutinize the footage and all sorts before defemlnding him. Feeling a little pesemistic now 

The alleged criminal offence:

"The cctv footage shows him and a friend looking in a draw containing the juices. From the angle of the footage it looks like my son had put one in his bag however, on scrutinising it, my son had picked one up with his left hand but at the same time he searched his man bag with thecright hand for his money. After thinking he hadn't got his with him he dropped it back in the draw. The footage clearly shows his right hand empty as he put his hand in his bag but does not show him putting it back in because his friend was in the way."

A duty solicitor was there but said nothing throughout the entire interview. The police are now calling his mate back in for another interview and is going to present the case to a prosecution service."

Was the other lad charged with anything too?

"I refused consent for photographs and finger prints till they have solid proof. I am now worried about this prosecution service and whether they will look at the cctv footage carfully enough. He is not a theif and would have admitted it before now if he had done anything."

When you refused consent for photographs and finger prints it implies there was something to hide. The magistrates is permitted by law to make what is called an adverse inference under the Criminal Justice Act 2003, i believe. What did the duty solicitor say about doing this, surely they would have advised against it??? It is essentially stopping the prosecution from doing their job. So, now your son's defence lawyer will likely have to prove that the adverse inference should not apply.

"This has wound me up and I'm angry that his future could be put in jeopardy because of an assumption. He is a law abiding army cadet who is eager to do good deeds for people and find it so unfair. Could you please tell me if I have done the right thing or not, and give me some guide nice on what to expect next. I am quite teary right now because I'm so angry. Thank you very much. "

The relevant law that the prosecution are citing concerns theft. However, in your facts you say there were two people, your son and his friend? So it should have been joint enterprise charge or aiding abetting. Your son's defence was that he was neither principal (main) offender or joint accomplice. Were these the facts, did your son do anything wrong, ie steal the juice or help the other boy steal the juice? Your son will not get in the armed forces if he pleads guilty and is convicting of theft (or theft via joint enterprise or aiding an abetting the principal offender to commit theft). If he has done nothing wrong, he can say it is circumstantial evidence.

Criminal law a side...there is no public interest in convicting a shop lifter for the amount of two bloody pounds 50. If your son admitted guilt at the time he would likely have got a caution. it costs far more for court staff on minimum wage (if they were on minimum wage etc). Was he offered a caution? What did the police say at the time Vicky?

[Amethyst]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

I asked someone to look over the thread on your behalf who is experienced in criminal proceedings.

Keep her appt with solicitor who will explain process. 15 June will just be a plea hearing. He will not be expected to fully defend the case that day but should be given disclosure of the case. If he pleads not guilty, trial will be well in future and not near his exams so he shouldn't stress about the hearing.

Plea hearing is basically - is your name X, address Y, DOB ? How do you plead ?...

This might help a bit

What will happen at the first court hearing in the Magistrates’ Court?

At the first court hearing you will be given a copy of the papers. Please note that this isn’t necessarily all of the evidence that will eventually be served by the prosecution if you plead not guilty and your case proceeds to trial. The papers you’ll be given are called advanced information and usually contain: a summary of the case; your charge sheet; prosecution witness statements; your tape of interview; a list of your previous convictions.

If you have a solicitor he or she will go through the papers with you, take your instructions on them and advise you whether you should plead guilty on the full facts, guilty on a basis of plea or not guilty. If you don’t have a solicitor you can have limited legal advice from the court clerk. If you have been charged with an imprisonable offence you are entitled to see the duty solicitor who can represent you for free.

When you go into court you will be asked to go into the dock. You should remain standing until you are asked to be seated. The legal advisor will ask you to give your name, address and date of birth. They will then ask your solicitor or you if you are unrepresented whether you are ready to enter your plea. If you’re not then your solicitor or you if unrepresented will have to ask the court for an adjournment. Beware, the courts do not adjourn cases easily and there must be a good reason for doing so. If you are ready to enter you plea you will be asked whether you are pleading guilty, not guilty or indicating no plea.

There's more on this site http://www.mulrooneycraghill.com/whe...-what-happens/ and I expect across other Criminal solicitors websites.

Just don't let this stress him and affect his exams xx

[Vicky7211]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

His friend was interviewed under caution but wasn't suspected of anything. I think they wanted him to tell them my son was stealing,however his friend had no idea what they were on about. My sons defense was that he had no intention of stealing nor did he steal anything; same as his friend. My son is in the firing line because he was the one who put his hand in his man bag to search for his money. After not finding his money whilst in the shop he made a more thorough check when he got outside and found his £15. The police asked why he didn't go back in and buy it he said he couldn't be bothered after all that.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

Hi it's been a while but I had a surprising letter today for a court appear appearence on June 15th for my son. He will be 16 June 2nd and he has just applied for the parachute regiment and in the process of being assessed for it. The court date is also the only day he gets off during his gcse's. I am devastated for him and fuming right now how can they be so stupid?

Vicky, there is still time to put a defence to have the charges dropped.

I note this at post 22: "

Yes i think the bottom line is, there is a lack of evidence and the police were definatly hoping for a confession which they're NOT going to get and it will be over my dead body! The shop in question has had a bout of shoplifting incidents latley which is why all this has come about.

"The police officer did say that was nothing to do with my son though haha..... i should think not."

Which police officer said this, what was his rank, ie was it a sergeant or inspector? This could be used to have the charges dropped. The police can only charge someone if there is evidence to charge someone. However, on the facts the police say you son has done nothing wrong. So there is a conflict of interest between the police and prosecution in terms of investigating crime under the relevant police investigation Act.

"But i suspect its a way of detering the local school kids and word getting around in this small market town. Its a pity my son is being used as a pawn in this persuit though. I feel quietly confident to move forward with this now after being on here. I have learned more from this site than i did from the solicitor yesterday...ten fold. I cant tell you how greatful i am for all your time and help and hopefully i can return with some good news in the short future. Thank you "

The prosecution must prove beyond reasonable doubt that your son had stolen the juice (the criminal act) and intention to do it (ie your son planned it), there also must be an objective test the reasonable person (ie hypothetical person) in the court's mind would view it as theft and a subjective test, your son in the court's mind knew it was likely theft). There is reasonable doubt because there were two people present ie your son and his friend and it is not known (reasonable doubt) on the CCTV camera evidence who attempted the alleged theft. It could have been your son's friend so there is reasonable doubt that your son committed the entire elements of theft potentially for theft liability against him, is my view. .

[Vicky7211]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

The alleged criminal offence:

"The cctv footage shows him and a friend looking in a draw containing the juices. From the angle of the footage it looks like my son had put one in his bag however, on scrutinising it, my son had picked one up with his left hand but at the same time he searched his man bag with thecright hand for his money. After thinking he hadn't got his with him he dropped it back in the draw. The footage clearly shows his right hand empty as he put his hand in his bag but does not show him putting it back in because his friend was in the way."

A duty solicitor was there but said nothing throughout the entire interview. The police are now calling his mate back in for another interview and is going to present the case to a prosecution service."

Was the other lad charged with anything too?

"I refused consent for photographs and finger prints till they have solid proof. I am now worried about this prosecution service and whether they will look at the cctv footage carfully enough. He is not a theif and would have admitted it before now if he had done anything."

When you refused consent for photographs and finger prints it implies there was something to hide. The magistrates is permitted by law to make what is called an adverse inference under the Criminal Justice Act 2003, i believe. What did the duty solicitor say about doing this, surely they would have advised against it??? It is essentially stopping the prosecution from doing their job. So, now your son's defence lawyer will likely have to prove that the adverse inference should not apply.

"This has wound me up and I'm angry that his future could be put in jeopardy because of an assumption. He is a law abiding army cadet who is eager to do good deeds for people and find it so unfair. Could you please tell me if I have done the right thing or not, and give me some guide nice on what to expect next. I am quite teary right now because I'm so angry. Thank you very much. "

The relevant law that the prosecution are citing concerns theft. However, in your facts you say there were two people, your son and his friend? So it should have been joint enterprise charge or aiding abetting. Your son's defence was that he was neither principal (main) offender or joint accomplice. Were these the facts, did your son do anything wrong, ie steal the juice or help the other boy steal the juice? Your son will not get in the armed forces if he pleads guilty and is convicting of theft (or theft via joint enterprise or aiding an abetting the principal offender to commit theft). If he has done nothing wrong, he can say it is circumstantial evidence.

Criminal law a side...there is no public interest in convicting a shop lifter for the amount of two bloody pounds 50. If your son admitted guilt at the time he would likely have got a caution. it costs far more for court staff on minimum wage (if they were on minimum wage etc). Was he offered a caution? What did the police say at the time Vicky?[/QUOTE]


Oh dear I read that no is obliged to have their photo taken or have finger prints taken if they havn't been found guilty of anything. In fact the police use it as a tool to implicate him in other crimes. This is why i refused consent....if he hasn't done anything they wont need it. The duty solicitor didn't try to stop me either.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

[/I][/COLOR]
"This has wound me up and I'm angry that his future could be put in jeopardy because of an assumption. He is a law abiding army cadet who is eager to do good deeds for people and find it so unfair. Could you please tell me if I have done the right thing or not, and give me some guide nice on what to expect next. I am quite teary right now because I'm so angry. Thank you very much. "

The relevant law that the prosecution are citing concerns theft. However, in your facts you say there were two people, your son and his friend? So it should have been joint enterprise charge or aiding abetting. Your son's defence was that he was neither principal (main) offender or joint accomplice. Were these the facts, did your son do anything wrong, ie steal the juice or help the other boy steal the juice? Your son will not get in the armed forces if he pleads guilty and is convicting of theft (or theft via joint enterprise or aiding an abetting the principal offender to commit theft). If he has done nothing wrong, he can say it is circumstantial evidence.

Criminal law a side...there is no public interest in convicting a shop lifter for the amount of two bloody pounds 50. If your son admitted guilt at the time he would likely have got a caution. it costs far more for court staff on minimum wage (if they were on minimum wage etc). Was he offered a caution? What did the police say at the time Vicky?

Oh dear I read that no is obliged to have their photo taken or have finger prints taken if they havn't been found guilty of anything. In fact the police use it as a tool to implicate him in other crimes. This is why i refused consent....if he hasn't done anything they wont need it. The duty solicitor didn't try to stop me either.[/QUOTE]

Listen, try not to worry as from what I have read on your son's facts it doesn't seem likely the prosecution will be able to convict him of theft. There are just too many uncertainties, for example even if the prosecution could prove the criminal act they still have to prove everything else including 'beyond reasonable doubt.' However, where did you read he could refuse consent to finger prints and photographs. Was it somewhere online?

[Vicky7211]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

he could have taken a caution but why should he if he hadnt done anything? im kind of wishing now that he had nicked it so he could take what ever was coming to him and get it over and done with but it turns out being innocent is more complicated than actually being guilty.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes on a police guidelines for interview under caution. I think it is used for training police and is a uk up to date page.

[Vicky7211]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

Will this affect his application for the army now? he will start in either September this year or march 2017 if he passes and will the hearing be during his training or before. I feel like telling them to get knotted with they're petty red tape pen pushing pillocks and to leave him alone. I cant believe he wants to go and defend people like these idiots.

[des8]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

Cease worrying about adverse inferences being drawn from your refusal to allow fingerprinting or photographing of your son
If you want to know more: http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/a_to_c/a...nferences/#a05

[Openlaw15]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

he could have taken a caution but why should he if he hadnt done anything? im kind of wishing now that he had nicked it so he could take what ever was coming to him and get it over and done with but it turns out being innocent is more complicated than actually being guilty.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes on a police guidelines for interview under caution. I think it is used for training police and is a uk up to date page.

Playing devil's advocate now. The prosecution have no option but to try and convict your son of theft. They cannot go for joint enterprise now because his friend has been exonerated (proved not guilty) of all potential charges of theft. Your son friend's successful defence of 'no intention' through his shrewd lawyer means there could be no theft liability (ie no conviction) against him.

"My son is in the firing line because he was the one who put his hand in his man bag to search for his money. After not finding his money whilst in the shop he made a more thorough check when he got outside and found his £15. The police asked why he didn't go back in and buy it he said he couldn't be bothered after all that."

So, by the this the police assume these facts support the intention element (ie mens rea, or guilt mind) for theft. By this the prosecution must prove there is an intention to steal. Is this alleged theft in England and Wales, ie outside such as Scotland by the way? However, these facts are an intention to buy but not an intention to steal. I am still sure it's not a criminal offence to attempt to buy something??? So I do not think the prosecution can prove intention to steal (mens rea).

I have thought of another defence your son could use if the intention is satisfied. If the prosecution can prove the criminal act (actus reus, ie criminal act of theft) as they seem to be able to as per his friend's case they will likely be able to prove criminal act of theft in your son's situation too. Let's assume too the prosecution can prove 'intention' ie your son intended to steal (although i doubt they can), you son has a defence of 'departing from the plan to steal the juice, it's based on criminal case law. There is another case where the crime was not committed even though it was planned (ie criminal intent) as they changed their mind at the last minute. It was a potentially gruesome case however the legal principle is there was set 'a point of no return', ie if they go beyond this it's a criminal offence but if they stay within the parameters it's not a criminal offence.

My other question is why did your son's friend have a lawyer acting for him but your son did not? Was the criminal lawyer acting for your friend at the time during the time when he was being interviewed by the police, or at later point post the interview?

[Vicky7211]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

I know where your coming from and yes you've made a good point. He can reinforce the' intention to buy' defense with the fact that prior to the alleged theft, my son had a full on conversation with the shop owner about the juices and they're percentage of nicotine. The shop owner then pointed at the %0 juices and told him to look through them (as these were the ones he could have legally given his age). In full view of the shop keeper. Yes this seems like a good way to approach it thank you for that :goodjob:

[Openlaw15]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

I know where your coming from and yes you've made a good point. He can reinforce the' intention to buy' defense with the fact that prior to the alleged theft, my son had a full on conversation with the shop owner about the juices and they're percentage of nicotine. The shop owner then pointed at the %0 juices and told him to look through them (as these were the ones he could have legally given his age). In full view of the shop keeper. Yes this seems like a good way to approach it thank you for that :goodjob:

If his crap defence lawyer had said that during the interview it's likely we wouldn't be having this conversation!

[Vicky7211]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

I think your right. The next one is going to receive full instructions by myself prior to the hearing and i want to see him acting like a solicitor and not a by stander. Thanks for your help i'll keep you updated.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

I think your right. The next one is going to receive full instructions by myself prior to the hearing and i want to see him acting like a solicitor and not a by stander. Thanks for your help i'll keep you updated.

Tell your son to plead not guilty and the reasons why. The prosecution may drop the case against your son at the preliminary hearing stage. If they do not then you could ask for legal assistance. It is entirely up to you.

[Jj78]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

Just remember the solicitor acts for your son and not you s/he won't be able to take instructions from you