Son caught shop lifting

[des8]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

If the police decision maker considers there is sufficient evidence to charge a suspect all cases involving individuals under the age of 18should be referred to the CPS, due to the additional considerationsrequired in such cases.
The court (if it ever went that far) would be a youth court.

CF i)The Home Office guidance to police "Implementing Section 176 of the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014: Low value shoplifting"
http://www.gov.uk/government/uploads...t_guidance.pdf
ii)CPS Guidance on charging https://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/...nce_5.html#a04

You may find this quote (from http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/minor_offences/) reassuring:
"Where no admission is made to a minor offence by the suspect, and it is therefore not possible to offer a caution or conditional caution, prosecutors will be faced with a choice between initiating proceedings and taking no action. In some such cases, depending on all the circumstances, no further action may be the more appropriate disposal."

[Vicky7211]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

If the police decision maker considers there is sufficient evidence to charge a suspect all cases involving individuals under the age of 18should be referred to the CPS, due to the additional considerationsrequired in such cases.
The court (if it ever went that far) would be a youth court.

CF i)The Home Office guidance to police "Implementing Section 176 of the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014: Low value shoplifting"
http://www.gov.uk/government/uploads...t_guidance.pdf
ii)CPS Guidance on charging https://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/...nce_5.html#a04

You may find this quote (from http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/minor_offences/) reassuring:
"Where no admission is made to a minor offence by the suspect, and it is therefore not possible to offer a caution or conditional caution, prosecutors will be faced with a choice between initiating proceedings and taking no action. In some such cases, depending on all the circumstances, no further action may be the more appropriate disposal."

I was just reading that whole page before seeing this lol. It has eased my mind slightly. I just hope common sense prevails now. Thank you so much for your help everyone i'll keep you posted.

[oldbadger]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

Of thanks for that.my son has had an interview under caution today, over an alleged shop lifting offense of an ecig juice worth £2.50.

Hello Vicky! I have quite a lot of experience in this 'area'.
Did your son say anything to the Police? Were you present, or any other adult in addition to the duty solicitor?

The cctv footage shows him and a friend looking in a draw containing the juices. From the angle of the footage it looks like my son had put one in his bag however, on scrutinising it, my son had picked one up with his left hand but at the same time he searched his man bag with thecright hand for his money. After thinking he hadn't got his with him he dropped it back in the draw. The footage clearly shows his right hand empty as he put his hand in his bag but does not show him putting it back in because his friend was in the way.

No Problems....... I feel sure that you are right, and that he put it back, but it doesn't make any difference if he put the whole display in his bag, because this 'scene' is only a tiny fraction of what would be required to prove that he had stolen anything! For a court to be sure that a theft did occur, there has to be an unbroken view of a defendant approaching the display with empty hand and selecting an item. Then the defendant must be kept in full and unbroken view until he passed all pay-points without offering to pay, and leaving the store, walking on and away from the premises.
Does the CCTV footage show that?..... unbroken?

A duty solicitor was there but said nothing throughout the entire interview.

May the good Lord bless and keep all duty solicitors. In my experience many of these good people often guide folks..... any folks.... towards a nice easy Caution or Warning or whatever so that they can snooze away the rest of their shift. Do not let your son admit to anything, because in fear. This is quite common. Once they have signed that Caution they are a self-confessed thief..... so none of that.

The police are now calling his mate back in for another interview and is going to present the case to a prosecution service. I refused consent for photographs and finger prints till they have solid proof.

Don't worry what 'his mate' might say. In fear mates can say any blooming thing.

I am now worried about this prosecution service and whether they will look at the cctv footage carfully enough.

Well, if the CPS don't look carefully enough they will have an embarrasing time in court, is my guess. The CPS knows what it needs to see, and the above description is pathetically inadequate.#

He is not a theif and would have admitted it before now if he had done anything. This has wound me up and I'm angry that his future could be put in jeopardy because of an assumption.

OK........ if necessary, you ask for a defender for him, and if the defender is lazy, insist on another. DO NOT allow the same defender to defend your son AND the other lad. OK?

He is a law abiding army cadet who is eager to do good deeds for people and find it so unfair. Could you please tell me if I have done the right thing or not, and give me some guide nice on what to expect next. I am quite teary right now because I'm so angry. Thank you very much.

There are some really good legal beagles here......... you will get fair advice here.

[oldbadger]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

Dear Vicky....... I could not finish my last post, was called away, so.........

The fact is that we the public do all kinds of strange things when we are shopping. A shopper might select ten tins of sweetcorn and put these in their bag, and then, half way round the shop the shopper thinks, 'Oh, hang on, I don't need sweetcorn this week, and put all those tins down on a coffee display.
I could argue about how bad mannered such actions are if I hadn't done exactly this myself. In fact, most of us have selected items, changed our minds, and then put said items down further on. Obviously chilled products should be put back in chilled displays, but even so, bad manners is just (and only) that.

Sometimes a shopper might be tempted by an expensive item and select/hide it, but then, half way round the shop they see reason and put the item down somewhere.

See? A Full and continuous unbroken clear observation or record is required for a court to be convinced that a theft did happen.

One more point and 'll let somebody else help. Back in early October the law changed and all big and many small shops now charge for carrier bags. So we (mostly) take our own bags into shops these days. So it's reasonable to use our bags to carry selected goods up to the paypoints. I do this as standard, now. So....... on the basis of your description I could be accused of stealing every other day. But I don't steal...... I pay for what I select, and so, I expect, does your son.

[Vicky7211]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

Hello Vicky! I have quite a lot of experience in this 'area'.
Did your son say anything to the Police? Were you present, or any other adult in addition to the duty solicitor?


No Problems....... I feel sure that you are right, and that he put it back, but it doesn't make any difference if he put the whole display in his bag, because this 'scene' is only a tiny fraction of what would be required to prove that he had stolen anything! For a court to be sure that a theft did occur, there has to be an unbroken view of a defendant approaching the display with empty hand and selecting an item. Then the defendant must be kept in full and unbroken view until he passed all pay-points without offering to pay, and leaving the store, walking on and away from the premises.
Does the CCTV footage show that?..... unbroken?


May the good Lord bless and keep all duty solicitors. In my experience many of these good people often guide folks..... any folks.... towards a nice easy Caution or Warning or whatever so that they can snooze away the rest of their shift. Do not let your son admit to anything, because in fear. This is quite common. Once they have signed that Caution they are a self-confessed thief..... so none of that.


Don't worry what 'his mate' might say. In fear mates can say any blooming thing.


Well, if the CPS don't look carefully enough they will have an embarrasing time in court, is my guess. The CPS knows what it needs to see, and the above description is pathetically inadequate.#



OK........ if necessary, you ask for a defender for him, and if the defender is lazy, insist on another. DO NOT allow the same defender to defend your son AND the other lad. OK?



There are some really good legal beagles here......... you will get fair advice here.

Wow thats very reasurring indeed. Yes the footage obsured my sons left hand which was holding the carton. I did say on tape that we can't see my son put the carton down in the draw because his mate is in the way. However we can clearly see his right hand go into his bag to look for his money! It looks like he lifted the item (not fully out of the draw) to see the price tag (as everything in the shop is individualy priced), at the same time looking to see if he had his money with him. There was myself a solicitor and the interviewing officer plus a trainee officer in a very small room and not enough seats. The trainee had to crouch.
The footage does not show him walking past the pay point and out the door it cuts off as he walked away from the produce. If it goes any further could get my own solicitor to defend him and would this be covered by legal aid?
The sad thing is he came home from cadets tonight with a heavy marbel plaque....an award for being cadet of the month for excelent attitude and hard work.
I have just taken 2 tranquilizers to sleep tonight so may feel sleepy in a while but i will look at the thread again tomorrow. Im so greatful for your in depth analysis it means a lot thank you so much x

[oldbadger]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

If it goes any further could get my own solicitor to defend him and would this be covered by legal aid? ...............

Hello Vicky.........
I don't know who can or cannot obtain legal aid.
There are Senior Members here who will know all about that.

Neither you nor I condone or support anybody who steals from others, especially small private shops that struggle against the national giants. But all shops need to understand that full and complete evidence is required before damaging a person's reputation with allegations such as this.

That shops set out to catch thieves rather than just deter petty crime, and that a few police forces will spend a lot of money over very small incidents ..... is not the point here. It's quite simply a case of 'a full and definite record is not available'.

Your son selected a drink. He checked his bag. He did not have enough funds to pay. He put it back, or down, and left the area. 10 days later he was taken to a police station and interrogated. He denied the allegations. The CCTV footage was unhelpful. ........ is about all that I can gather from this situation. I personally (imo) suspect that the police hoped for a 'collapse and confession' which would be fine if he had stolen, but not if he did not.

[Vicky7211]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

Hello Vicky.........
I don't know who can or cannot obtain legal aid.
There are Senior Members here who will know all about that.

Neither you nor I condone or support anybody who steals from others, especially small private shops that struggle against the national giants. But all shops need to understand that full and complete evidence is required before damaging a person's reputation with allegations such as this.

That shops set out to catch thieves rather than just deter petty crime, and that a few police forces will spend a lot of money over very small incidents ..... is not the point here. It's quite simply a case of 'a full and definite record is not available'.

Your son selected a drink. He checked his bag. He did not have enough funds to pay. He put it back, or down, and left the area. 10 days later he was taken to a police station and interrogated. He denied the allegations. The CCTV footage was unhelpful. ........ is about all that I can gather from this situation. I personally (imo) suspect that the police hoped for a 'collapse and confession' which would be fine if he had stolen, but not if he did not.

Yes i think the bottom line is, there is a lack of evidence and the police were definatly hoping for a confession which they're NOT going to get and it will be over my dead body! The shop in question has had a bout of shoplifting incidents latley which is why all this has come about. The police officer did say that was nothing to do with my son though haha..... i should think not. But i suspect its a way of detering the local school kids and word getting around in this small market town. Its a pity my son is being used as a pawn in this persuit though. I feel quietly confident to move forward with this now after being on here. I have learned more from this site than i did from the solicitor yesterday...ten fold. I cant tell you how greatful i am for all your time and help and hopefully i can return with some good news in the short future. Thank you

[Vicky7211]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

Hi it's been a while but I had a surprising letter today for a court appear appearence on June 15th for my son. He will be 16 June 2nd and he has just applied for the parachute regiment and in the process of being assessed for it. The court date is also the only day he gets off during his gcse's. I am devastated for him and fuming right now 😠😠😠how can they be so stupid?

[Openlaw15]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

Hi it's been a while but I had a surprising letter today for a court appear appearence on June 15th for my son. He will be 16 June 2nd and he has just applied for the parachute regiment and in the process of being assessed for it. The court date is also the only day he gets off during his gcse's. I am devastated for him and fuming right now how can they be so stupid?

Hello Vicky

This is my first post to this thread. I have studied criminal and public law (ie include police power/ charging etc) so I may be able to help. Can you tell me exactly your son's position now? Has your son been charged with any offence or is this appearance at court as a mere witness? What advice did the duty solicitor provide at the police station at the time, ie any particular defences? What about subsequent advice by any criminal lawyers? I can't comment further until I know how things have progressed.

[Kati]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

Hi it's been a while but I had a surprising letter today for a court appear appearence on June 15th for my son. He will be 16 June 2nd and he has just applied for the parachute regiment and in the process of being assessed for it. The court date is also the only day he gets off during his gcse's. I am devastated for him and fuming right now how can they be so stupid?

could you email me a scan/pic of the letter Vicky??

tagging [MENTION=6]Amethyst[/MENTION] [MENTION=2]Celestine[/MENTION] [MENTION=39710]des8[/MENTION]

[Vicky7211]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

Hi I've just sent you an attachment email Kate thanks

[Kati]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

Hi I've just sent you an attachment email Kate thanks

Got it

could you send pages 2 and 3 as well please??

[Vicky7211]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

Done 😉

[Kati]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

.......

[Vicky7211]

Re: Son caught shop lifting

Hello Vicky

This is my first post to this thread. I have studied criminal and public law (ie include police power/ charging etc) so I may be able to help. Can you tell me exactly your son's position now? Has your son been charged with any offence or is this appearance at court as a mere witness? What advice did the duty solicitor provide at the police station at the time, ie any particular defences? What about subsequent advice by any criminal lawyers? I can't comment further until I know how things have progressed.

Hi i didnt know he could be charged with anything unless he was found guilty of anything. The requisition letter we recieved today states it is with regards to a charge of theft of an ecig juice worth £2.50. The duty solicitor was useless and said very little about what would happen next. He then sent me a letter to confirm the interview and his presence and details of fees should i need him again. No thanks...i am making an appointment with a defense solicitor tommorrow woth a view to speak with him. He did say thought that he wont recieve any details of his case until the morning of the hearing. So it looks like we're going in totaly unprepaired. He has not seen footage, seem any of the interview transcript nothing. How can he defend him if he has nothing to go on. I was hoping he would scrutinize the footage and all sorts before defemlnding him. Feeling a little pesemistic now 😕