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Court lets woman off £8,000 loan - unenforceable loan agreement

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  • Court lets woman off £8,000 loan - unenforceable loan agreement

    By Ian Pollock
    Personal finance reporter, BBC News





    A decision by a county court Judge could mean thousands of borrowers being able to renege on their debts.
    Judge Jacqueline Smart at South Shields county court has decided that the MBNA credit card company cannot demand the repayment of a customer's debt.

    It tried to force Lynne Thorius to repay the £8,000 she owed on her card.
    But the Judge decided there had been an unfair relationship between Ms Thorius and MBNA because of the way she had been sold payment protection insurance.

    'Massive ramifications'
    Ms Thorius' case was pursued on her behalf by a claims management firm Cartel Client Review, based in Manchester, and the law firm Consumer Credit Litigation Solicitors.

    Carl Wright of Cartel Client Review, claimed the court decision was a landmark judgement.
    "This will have massive ramifications for consumers up and down the country," he said.
    But MBNA downplayed the importance of the court decision.

    "The judgement went against MBNA for a number of reasons," a spokeswoman said.
    "In principle, because the deputy district judge felt that MBNA had not on this occasion provided the appropriate documents to the customer and as such was not able to rely on the clauses MBNA would ordinarily seek to rely on in these cases," she explained.

    "The case is a county court case and each case is decided on its own merits and on the factual circumstances of each case. This does not set any legal precedent," said MBNA.

    'Secret commission'
    The credit card in question was branded with the logo of Sunderland football club and was sold to Ms Thorius in the club's shop in 2002.
    The PPI policy was sold to her at the same time, to pay off her account if she fell ill or was made redundant.

    But, critically, she had not been told that MBNA would be receiving regular commission payments from the insurance provider ITT London & Edinburgh, a subsidiary of the Aviva insurance group.

    Judge Smart agreed with the argument of Ms Thorius's barrister, Paul Brant, that this "secret" commission meant the credit card deal was unfair and therefore in breach the Consumer Credit Act.
    This point could potentially undermine many other agreements where PPI has been sold by the lender alongside a loan.

    These include car finance deals, other personal loans and even mortgages.

    "This practice is believed to be widespread and formed part of the Competition Commission's decision to prohibit the co-sale of PPI with credit in its report published on 29/1/09," Mr Brant noted.

    "This point is likely to affect many thousands of individuals within England and Wales," he added.

    Repayments
    Judge Smart also agreed that the debt on Ms Thorius's credit card was unenforceable because the card company could not provide a copy of the original loan agreement, which is also required by the Consumer Credit Act.

    MBNA's claim for the repayment of the outstanding money on the card was rejected.

    And the Judge ordered the company either to repay Ms Thorius's PPI premiums and interest, or the value of the commissions it had received which so far has been undisclosed.

    The PPI premiums, which rose each month as the credit card debts increased, amounted to £2,500 over the time the card had been in use.

    Controversial
    The claims management industry which has emerged in the past few years has been highly controversial.

    Many firms advertise in newspapers and on television, encouraging people to come forward to write off their debts.

    This year the authorities, such as the Office of Fair Trading (OFT), Ministry of Justice (which regulates claims management firms) and the Solicitors Regulation Authority, have warned firms not to make exaggerated claims about their ability to get debts written off because of apparent technical errors in the lenders' paperwork.

    Since April 2007 more than 100 such firms, or those advertising for people to pursue personal injury claims, have been shut down by the OFT.
    But the South Shields ruling appears to open up a new and genuine line of attack for claims firms.
    "We have been using this argument for some time but lenders have been settling outside the courts to avoid publicity," said Mr Wright.

    MBNA applied for leave to appeal, which was rejected, but it may now apply directly to a higher court for permission to appeal.

    Only when higher courts have decided the issue will the legal ramifications, and the effects on lender and borrowers, be clear.

  • #2
    Re: Court lets woman off £8,000 loan

    Good news.
    #staysafestayhome

    Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

    Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Court lets woman off £8,000 loan

      It is good news :tinysmile_grin_t: but the Claims Management Companies will feed of the back of this one like they did with the Rankines, and not everyone will be so lucky with their County Court as this was a County Court judgement and they will charge people a shed loads of money with promises that they may not be able to get the loans written off plus I see this going to the higher courts as MBNA have a lot to loose when the floodgates open and they will.

      The BBC article does warn that this is not a land mark case. and that the CMC's cannot entice new customers off the back of this. So I for one will be watching this space as far as CMC's are concerned.

      'This year the authorities, such as the Office of Fair Trading (OFT), Ministry of Justice (which regulates claims management firms) and the Solicitors Regulation Authority, have warned firms not to make exaggerated claims about their ability to get debts written off because of apparent technical errors in the lenders' paperwork'

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Court lets woman off £8,000 loan

        I kind of disagree with you Tuttsi in that I think this is a landmark case, not from a CCA perspective but the judge's view that the contract was unfair and therefore not binding because the claimant was unaware that MBNA received commision from the PPI provider and this practice must be quite widespread.

        But the devil will be in the detail of the judgment which in fact is yet to be made. It's certainly put the fear of god into MBNA as I understand they have been very busy calling around the press in an effort to supress the story.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Court lets woman off £8,000 loan

          I acept that....Exc, but my main concerns is the way that the CMC's will exploit this to make more revenue for themselves and are likely to mislead the general public. Not all contracts will be the same as this particular one.

          Originally posted by EXC View Post
          I kind of disagree with you Tuttsi in that I think this is a landmark case, not from a CCA perspective but the judge's view that the contract was unfair and therefore not binding because the claimant was unaware that MBNA received commision from the PPI provider and this practice must be quite widespread.

          But the devil will be in the detail of the judgment which in fact is yet to be made. It's certainly put the fear of god into MBNA as I understand they have been very busy calling around the press in an effort to supress the story.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Court lets woman off £8,000 loan

            Originally posted by TUTTSI View Post
            I acept that....Exc, but my main concerns is the way that the CMC's will exploit this to make more revenue for themselves and are likely to mislead the general public. Not all contracts will be the same as this particular one.
            Totally agree with you there.

            I must say that I've always considered PPI to be worse than bank charges as even when people want to buy it, it usually turns out to be money for old rope. In insurance terms the quality of the cover is comparable to the gift you find in a cheap Christmas cracker and only works if you don't touch it.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Court lets woman off £8,000 loan

              Loan insurance could be invalid says judge

              The failure of credit card providers to come clean about the commission earned on PPI sales may trigger refunds

              James Charles









              div#related-article-links p a, div#related-article-links p a:visited {color:#06c;} Payment protection insurance (PPI) policies could be invalid if banks and credit card providers do not reveal the commission earned on the sale of the policy, according to a ruling by a Judge in South Shields.

              Judge Jacqueline Smart decided that a credit card holder was entitled to have her PPI payments refunded because MBNA did not reveal that it would be earning commission from the insurance provider when it sold her the policy.
              PPI is sold alongside credit cards, loans, finance agreements and mortgages to cover repayments if people are off work because of illness or unemployment. It is already in the spotlight amid evidence that it has been widely mis-sold.

              However, the ruling suggests that even if a PPI policy has not been mis-sold, the failure of providers to spell out the commission received from the sale of policies could render the terms of the policy invalid.
              Carl Wright, chief executive of Cartel Client Review, a claims management firm that brought the case, said: "This is the first time that a judge has ruled on this point and it has wide-reaching implications for the financial services industry.



              "If there is a 'secret' commission that is not disclosed then they are in breach of the unfair terms and relations regulations of the Consumer Credit Act."
              The implication of the ruling is that the consumer is entitled to know about the level of commission received by a bank, building society or credit provider when being sold a financial product such as PPI. Not being given that information is unfair.

              Daniela Lipszyc, a solicitor at Ultimate Law, a law firm, said: "If you knew that someone was receiving a commission on product that were being sold to you, it would affect your view of the product. It affects the essence of the relationship."

              Experts said it was extremely common for banks and credit providers to receive commission from insurance providers on the sale of PPI products to customers, but rare for this to be disclosed to customers.

              The case concerned Lynne Thorius, a 49-year-old cleaning supervisor, who is now due to have up to £2,520 refunded after paying between £20 and £30 for PPI on her credit card for seven years. She may also be due the commission earned by MBNA on the sale of the policy.

              MBNA had been suing Ms Thorius for £8,000 of arrears. However, she was also able to write-off the credit card debt after the Judge ruled that it could not demand repayment of the debts because MBNA could not produce the original credit agreement. Under the Consumer Credit Act, this renders the credit agreement invalid.

              The bank was also accused of mis-selling the PPI policy because Ms Thorius insisted that she had not signed up to receive protection on her credit card repayments.

              Ms Lipszyc said: "It appears that there are other significant bearings on this case in particular. It appears that it was also a case of mis-selling and there was a lack of a credit agreement, which would support Ms Thorius's case."

              Which?, the consumer association, also warned that although it is the first time such a ruling has been made, as a country court Judge it would not set a legal precedent.

              Adam Williams, of Which?, said: "This case is significant but it will remain up to the judge’s discretion whether the whole policy is refunded to consumers or just the commission received by the provider."

              MBNA has downplayed the implications of the ruling and insisted the case hinged on a lack of documentary evidence.
              "In principle, because the deputy district judge felt that MBNA had not on this occasion provided the appropriate documents to the customer and as such was not able to rely on the clauses MBNA would ordinarily seek to rely on in these cases," she explained.

              "The case is a county court case and each case is decided on its own merits and on the factual circumstances of each case. This does not set any legal precedent."

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Court lets woman off £8,000 loan

                The Beeb article is the main one (I don't know where that one above is from Exc?) that mentions the secret commission aspect. The rest of the coverage focuses on the fact they didn't have an agreement and that she ticked 'no' to PPI yet it was applied anyway.

                I'd love to get my hands on the judgment and transcripts but I wouldn't get carried away with the secret commission aspect yet, that would be the dynamite yet most outlets don't even reference it which to me says it wasn't a big part of the case.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Court lets woman off £8,000 loan

                  Sorry, but for some reason this leaves a taste in my mouth and it's not good.
                  It's a bad piece of reporting as a COUNTY court judgement has NO binding.
                  That being said this whole issue was covered in Wilson Vs Hurstanger in the HoL.

                  Interesting that they took that angle rather than their more normal s127(3) ??
                  Hmmm

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Court lets woman off £8,000 loan

                    The problem I have is it's only the Beeb and the report Exc found that even mention secret commission. The cartel site also carries the Beeb report.

                    The quote in Exc's report about first time a DJ has ruled on this point of law in other reports is related to the box being ticked for no and MBNA still adding the PPI regardless. In other reports it has nothing to do with secret commission.

                    Which by reading round, seemed to have very little to do with the case anyway, as enforceability was ruled on when they couldn't supply the agreement and the PPI was refunded when it was added contrary to a deliberate 'no I don't want it'.

                    The only real relevance of secret commission here is the DJ's either or when it comes to PPI + interest OR refund the commission taken? Which to me reads as a whichever is higher scenario?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Court lets woman off £8,000 loan

                      I believe, the judgment hasnt actually been handed down as yet. It is good news that this has gone the right way, until we see the judgment/transcripts we don't know exactly what the case is, as the reporters (with all due respect) have little in depth knowledge of the CCA, and Cartel, of course, will be quite happy for this to be shouted around being oooo loans with missold ppi are unenforceable as it gets all those people who have had claims of missold ppi thinking they could get the whole loan written off on simply that basis, and as we all know, it is rather more complicated than that.

                      I guess I mean it needs to be clear, before cartel rake in stacks of upfront £495's from peeps with missold PPI claims, that it needs to be made clear exactly under what circumstances missold PPI consitutes unenforceable agreements and where not (ie if shown seperate and calculated seperatly and missold due to something like being self employed when not it doesn't make an agreement unenforceable, and its more to do with where figures are shown (or not) and calculations of interest and non disclosed commissions.

                      does that make any sense or am i exceeedingly cynical as to why the ''confusion'' over the exact circumstances of the case behind proposed judgment is left open to ''missold PPI'' in the week of the FSA's PPI misselling announcments ????????
                      #staysafestayhome

                      Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

                      Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Court lets woman off £8,000 loan

                        Makes sense to me Ame.

                        MBNA's case crumbled because of no agreement.
                        If the PPI box was ticked no, it was clearly missold.
                        So where does the scarcely mentioned secret commission come in? Was it even argued or just a paper backup that was never clearly got to?

                        I've also seen some reports where its suggested the FSA have reacted due to this case and like other reports that ignore the secret commission bit, Mr Wright's first time ruled quote is attributed to PPI, not secret commission as inferred by the Beeb report.

                        Cough - http://www.myfinances.co.uk/news/news/insurance/loan-insurance/court-says-ppi-failings-cancel-credit-card-debt-$1331142.htm

                        I agree the transcripts and judgment would be very interesting.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Court lets woman off £8,000 loan

                          Is there any chance we could get the Judgement when it is available.

                          In the meantime the CMC's will have a field day off the back of that report.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Court lets woman off £8,000 loan

                            Already in hand tuttsi


                            oh and Cartel will probably send it about a fair bit anyway lol.
                            Last edited by Amethyst; 1st October 2009, 22:05:PM.
                            #staysafestayhome

                            Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

                            Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Court lets woman off £8,000 loan

                              Remember little ol me Ame if you beat me to the judgment. I'd dearly love to find the transcripts if at all possible though. If I find either, I'll give you a shout.

                              Comment

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