DWP Recovery from Estate - Pension Credit overpayment

[Willin']

I have been reading other threads in this forum concerning DWP and Recovery from Estates and I have garnered some useful information. I don't want to hijack anyone else's thread and muddy the waters so I am starting this thread. Apologies if this is going over old ground.

My mother passed away, aged 88, in February and was in receipt of Pension Credit. She had been receiving this benefit since 2003 and she was given help to make this assessment after a home visit - I think by Age Concern or the Local Authority as she was almost totally deaf and very nearly blind. At the the time she was assessed she had very little to declare as savings but over time her balance accrued - some was put into an ISA and the rest accumulated in her current account. At her death she had just over £20k in an ISA and about £7.5k in her current account plus an insurance policy which paid out on her death with a maturity value of £5.5k After probate was granted I, as executor of my mother's estate, received a letter from the DWP Recovery from Estates advising me not to distribute the estate as there may have been an overpayment of Pension Credit and to supply details of her final estate. I have done this and have now received a letter requesting details of all my mother's accounts ( Current Acccount, ISAs etc.) going back ten years to 2003. I am in the process of gathering this information.

I am confused by the information from the Pension Service that she did not have to inform the Pension Service of changes to her capital during the period of assessment (unless she needed to claim more). I contacted the Pension Service to find out if she had had a re-assessment and started a new period of assessment and was informed that she hadn't had an assessment since 2003.

If she did not have to declare any changes to her capital (which had only accrued since 2003) and if she had not had a re-assessment since 2003 does that mean she was in an indefinite "period of assessment" and is the DWP able to recover this money? If so how do I check that they have calculated this amount correctly?

[enquirer]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Pension Credit overpayment

The DWP now send these fishing letters as a matter of course.

If they do claim that the estate owes money, ask them to show their workings. In detail.

[wales01man]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Pension Credit overpayment

Would you rather the DWP just allowed people to claim benefits they were not entitled to not in this case maybe but in many I expect?

[Willin']

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Pension Credit overpayment

Would you rather the DWP just allowed people to claim benefits they were not entitled to not in this case maybe but in many I expect?

No I do not - and neither did I infer that the DWP is not within its rights to conduct this investigation. I am asking for clarification of my late mother's situation and for help in understanding if her estate is liable or not and how the DWP may arrive at any assessment for recovery accurately.

But thanks for your extremely helpful reply.

[wales01man]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Pension Credit overpayment

We dealt with this with my mother in laws estate simple they get statements they check things nothing to pay in our case,im not aiming the remarks at you but others on here or may read the forum ,hopefully for you its ok

[geedee0520]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Pension Credit overpayment

My experience is documented here: http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...y-from-Estates

What seems to happen is that DWP receive details of the estate, they check that against the capital & income means test for Pension Credit & get in touch. You then provide information as requested (plus there is an overriding 'anything else' clause) & then they let you know how much, if anything, you owe.

The staff at the Debt Recovery unit in Gloucester (I think) are very helpful. They have the actual claim form previously submitted and compare that to the information you give them for the years involved. The most they can recover is the entirety of the PC paid, and they cannot sue the deceased for a false claim (obviously!). They warn the executor that this is happening and they suggest not distributing the estate as there is potentially a claim & the executor & beneficiaries may be personally liable if the estate is distributed.

The DWP website has a calculator on it, plus info on previous rates and capital limits etc. Worth a look.

Hope this helps.

[Willin']

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Pension Credit overpayment

My experience is documented here: http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...y-from-Estates

What seems to happen is that DWP receive details of the estate, they check that against the capital & income means test for Pension Credit & get in touch. You then provide information as requested (plus there is an overriding 'anything else' clause) & then they let you know how much, if anything, you owe.

The staff at the Debt Recovery unit in Gloucester (I think) are very helpful. They have the actual claim form previously submitted and compare that to the information you give them for the years involved. The most they can recover is the entirety of the PC paid, and they cannot sue the deceased for a false claim (obviously!). They warn the executor that this is happening and they suggest not distributing the estate as there is potentially a claim & the executor & beneficiaries may be personally liable if the estate is distributed.

The DWP website has a calculator on it, plus info on previous rates and capital limits etc. Worth a look.

Hope this helps.

Most helpful! Thanks for your reply and I'll check out that calculator.

[Bill-K]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Pension Credit overpayment

Hi Willin' - and welcome to you. This is not my area, but if there was definitely no requirement for your Mother to declare changes in her capital after the initial PC assessment - AND the DWP did not make any further re-assessments themselves - then I can't see how the DWP can claim that any of her PC was overpaid. The onus appears to have been on the DWP to initiate any re-assessments, and if they failed to do this, then any apparent overpayments must surely be irrecoverable ?

A further point I think may be worth considering is that it appears that, subsequent to the original assessment, your Mother's capital increased slowly. It could perhaps be argued that she lived very frugally and was supported in many ways (financial and otherwise) by her family and friends. As a result, although she qualified to receive PC, she didn't need to spend it, and the additional capital which was accrued over the years was entirely made up of the PC to which she was entitled. There is (AFAIK) no DWP regulation that requires her to actually SPEND her PC if she doesn't have to, and she saved it all up for a rainy day - which is what our dear government has always encouraged us to do. I think there may well be an argument to be had that this was NOT capital, but unspent PC to which she WAS entitled - and to which the DWP have NO entitlement.

I think it would be a fairly simple matter to create a simple spreadsheet or table showing the PC (and other benefits perhaps) being received over the years, and comparing this with the slowly increasing capital over the same period. If the accumulated total of capital increases is less than the PC, then that should support this argument. If you can access the necessary figures, I can create a simple spreadsheet program to do this - just let me know.

[enquirer]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Pension Credit overpayment

Would you rather the DWP just allowed people to claim benefits they were not entitled to not in this case maybe but in many I expect?

If they have some evidence, all well and good. If they don't, then sending out menacing letters (at the taxpayers expense), to all and sundry is unacceptable. It also erodes the presumption of innocence.

At the end of the day, the recipient can simply say 'I will tell you nothing. If you think you've got a case, sue'.

[Willin']

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Pension Credit overpayment

Thanks Bill - that's brilliant of you. I don't have the figures to hand yet but I can use a spreadsheet OK so will give your suggestion a go when I do. If I get stuck I'll PM you for help if that is OK.

[Willin']

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Pension Credit overpayment

With regard to Bill's comment above I am fairly sure that that is what happened with my mother though I can't say for certain as I was not privy to her accounts and my sister did all her shopping and other day to day needs. With my mother being almost completely blind, very deaf and with very little mobility I am presuming she had little opportunity to spend her pension and other benefits and therefore lived very frugally with the consequence that capital accrued over the 10 years she was receiving pension credit.

[Bill-K]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Pension Credit overpayment

It would be interesting to hear some legally-founded comments on that idea, as it is nowt more than a lay suggestion from me at this point. My logic is not nessecelery the best path to follow, and is usually the less well-trod. I've cobbled together a little spready that I think might do the job, though. Please be aware that it has not been tested, so by all means PM me if any problems - or if you just want the finished version checked out. It's attached below.

Just fill in the top boxes, and it should unfold to show you a reversed projection (interpolation ?) of the scenario. You then need to check and adjust as required. Bear in mind that there are formulae in many of the cells, and if these are over-written, the results my be erratic. We may have to play 'ping-pong' with it a few times to get it right - but we'll get there. Even if the concept is legally unsteady, it can be issued as a challenge, I reckon.

[labman]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Pension Credit overpayment

I apologise to be the one saying this, but I've just Googled the duty to inform a change of circumstances with Pension Credit, and every single council on the first page put a clear onus on the person claiming the benefit to inform the DWP of the change of circumstances.

If someone had POA for your Mum, they would be the ones who should have informed the DWP in all likelihood.

I am NOT an expert on benefits though, so wait to see what comments others make about this post.

[wales01man]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Pension Credit overpayment

If that's correct maybe that's why the DWP send out the letters after the claimant dies nothing sinister just checking that a fraud has not occurred and we have to remember a lot of people dont tell all when claiming. In answer to enquirer do you condone or condemn benefit fraud?

[Bill-K]

Re: DWP Recovery from Estate - Pension Credit overpayment

But there was no change in circumstances, it appears, Labman. The dear lady was deemed to be entitled to Pension Credit, and she accepted it. Her bank balance grew accordingly, as she fortunately had no need to spend it. The only changes in her circumstances appear to have been wrought by the DWP themselves, by awarding her Pension Credit. My question would be "Should she have informed them of that which they were already aware ?"

It is surely none of their business (and I suspect this is in the T&C's somewhere) what she does with her PC. If she wants to gamble it away on online Bingo or simply wants to keep it back as security for a rainy day is none of their business - it's hers to do with as she wishes. To be penalised for NOT spending it on 'riotous living' is surely NOT acceptable, is it ?