What is an Asset ??

[whatnest]

Re: What is an Asset ??

Susie,
You dont need to commmunicate with the credit card companies or loan company anymore, certainly dont give them any information at all. (you have already advised them that your husband has passed away and provided them with evidence) If they are not in your name they are not your problem.
Write to them and ask them not to contact you anymore.

[leclerc]

Re: What is an Asset ??

Susie,
You dont need to commmunicate with the credit card companies or loan company anymore, certainly dont give them any information at all. (you have already advised them that your husband has passed away and provided them with evidence) If they are not in your name they are not your problem.
Write to them and ask them not to contact you anymore.

She does have to tell them that he has no assets whatsoever to pay any outstanding balances. Remember any debts are part of his estate and if there is nothing to pay then they have to write off the balances since they cannot chase anyone else.

[Garlok]

Re: What is an Asset ??

You are all missing the point! Susie's husband, now sadly deceased DOES have assets. He or more correctly his estate owns a 50% share in the property. The mere fact that his will transfers everything to Susie is irrelevant. Until the estates liabilities are discharged in full and properly does the transfer transaction take place. Only the RESIDUE of the estate once all liabilities have been discharged is the part that is available for the distribution to the benificiary by the executor.

As regards the payment of debts etc the ONLY debt we have been able to settle in the past until the estate is finally settled, and is acceptable I am told by law, (reinforced in the courts) is the funeral directors' invoices normally within one calendar month of the internment.

Why the hell do you think I was advising a very cautionary approach to this? The insurance payout as I see it is not an asset, the share in the property most definitely IS. The fact that it is not is merely an assumption at this stage which does not hold water.

Thats is why you need, to get out of this clean, to rattle the cages of the bank and the credit card company very hard indeed. The more that comes out, the more I am inclined to think that these CC debts and collective bank debts will have to be paid in full the way things are being advised and handled. The joint account issue has become a red herring.

And I will go back to the probate issue , without probate being granted you do not have a leg to stand on in law, the execution of the will becomes an informal arrangement and remains open to challenge as to its validity and execaution by anyone who cares to roll along. For example is there documentary clearance of the deceased's affairs from the Revenue?

I have advised a cautionary approach all the way through this and have been berated for it. And told by someone here that I do know what I am talking about. Saga can only offer advice they have no legal standing and the Banking lending code is irrelevant.

regards
Garlok

[leclerc]

Re: What is an Asset ??

Garlok do you you think she needs to ask for further advice from probate because she did say that she had asked probate about that need and was told that it was unnecessary. Do you think she needs to make him aware that the property is as such jointly owned, ie 50/50 ownership and whether the original opinion that the OP was given, was incorrect re probate?

[Garlok]

Re: What is an Asset ??

Hello LC and Susie,

First of all Susie, I apologise for using the "third person" and saying "Susie this or Susie that" I hate using the vocative or accusative "you this or you that" in a delicate situation such as this. As to the question a lot depends on the particular enquiry Susie has asked. I did not want early on to come in with a load of legalese that we have been through and was going this morning to try and get a bit of a write up together to clarify my points and to try and find the best way forward for Susie. I will try to precis and highlight the areas anyway.

The difficulty occurs because most ordinary people like us rarely have to deal with these matters yet in my view now as an awful lot more people own property than they used to we should by all agencies be made more aware of the pitfalls of not having the basic knowledge to deal effectively with these matters at a very dark hour and vulnerable time for us.

Let us take Susie's circumstances as she has defined them a bit at a time and under no circumstance would I pry any further into her affairs. However I will pose some questions which I feel she should ask herself and then further perhaps we can point some way to solving the problems she may face.

Firstly over property and any assets of the estate. In the event of validated "mutually beneficial" wills (i.e. deceased leaves everything they own to the surviving spouse) then these assets will attract a zero value in their entirety for inheritance tax purposes note "inheritance tax purposes". Remember that a lot of property in the UK brings many ordinary folk dangerously close. They do NOT become valueless as regards the remainder of the estate, they are assets and legitimate charges and claims on the estate will have to be discharged from them. Therefore in this case despite the fact that I draw the conclusion that there is no liquid cash as such and that there are no personal items of real intrinsic financial value such as a named item on the house contents insurance then the assets of Susie's husband's estate will be his 50% share in the market value of the property at the date shown on his death certificate. I am drawing the conclusion also that there is no 1st charge on the property like a mortgage in which case it it is more complex but simply the assets would then be his 50% share in the equity at the date of death.

As executor of the estate it is an encumbent responsibility on Susie to discharge all legitimate claims on the estate BEFORE distributing the residue to the benificiar(y)(--ies).
The only expense that I know that is normally alowed for the release of cash prior to probate or execution of the will is in fact the funeral directors' expenses. In fact Susie has a legal responsibility to do this before she can discharge her responsibilities imposed upon her being the executor.

It is still my stance the terminal illness insurance payout does not form part of the assets of the estate. I would upon analysis suggest that the bank have behaved quite inappropriately and improperly in Susie's case. The joint account should have been frozen. At this point in time Susie was only personally responsible for 50% of the debt owing on the overdrawn account. The other 50% would then have become fixed in time and space (no charges no interest etc) and a formal claim and statement of affairs being served on the estate (via the executor or their representatives). The same should have applied to the outstanding balances on the credit cards and as such Susie should not have been chased for them personally at all until she is ready to distribute the residue.

What has happened is the bank have been quite happy to make the joint account a single user account and unless Susie has copper-bottomed watertight legally enforceable documentation to the contrary signed by someone in the bank's structure fully authorised to do so, Susie has been made responsible for 100% of the overdraft on which they can continue making all the charges and applying all of the interest. OF COURSE THE BANK ARE HAPPY. If they had behaved ethically and quite properly then the very least they would have done is to have opened a separate clear single user account and transferred the insurance payout into it immediately so that Susie could have continued with her daily requirements properly. If they had behaved with total ethical principles they would have refused the insurance payout into a frozen account and advised Susie to open an account at a bank that had no connections with their own and advised the insurance company to make contact with Susie to obtain the account details where she wanted the payment to be made. From experience any half decent probate lawyer would have advised this or even forced the issue on her behalf.

Now, we come to the vexed question. It is encumbent upon Susie once these quite proper claims(at this stage) have been made on her husband's estate to ensure their legitimacy before, emphasise before, any arrangements to make payment are made. She is NOT repeat NOT required to make voluntary statements as executor that these claims are legitimate even if she knows they are until they have been fully verified and that means making the claimant PROVE the claim.

So what can be done. Question, was the overdraft personally guaranteed, if so what were the exact terms of the guarantee?
Question. are you prepared to take them on and tell them that they have behaved improperly over a deceased's estate?
Question. Have you requested proof that the credit card accounts actually exist and under what regulations do the original agreements fall? Do they have copies of the original documents even? (we are dealing now with an estate not just a CCA1974/2006). Prove your claim CC company!

Question. Now let us suppose the worst in that and I am not suggesting that this will be the case, that all of the claims are proven to be legitimate. How do you intend paying them before discharging the responsibilities of being the executor of another's estate. Susie clearly does not want to sell her home to pay these debts.

Susie by now should have proper fixed in space claims upon the estate, please note that if the arrangement she has entered into with the bank over the account is for the full amount of the overdraft they CANNOT also make a legitimate claim upon the estate.

At this point it may be worth considering making an offer of Full and Final Settlements to the claimants of the legitimate debts. Susie will have to do some reading up on these and there is plenty on this forum about how to handle it but please Susie do not attempt thes on your own they have to be put togthere in a watertight fashion as the underpinning law is complex and expensive if things go wrong, but with proper help you can achieve settlements at the 10% of claimed debt, gone about professionally. A goods specialist solicitor can normally bring matters to a close with four letters maybe three.

As to probate, if property is involved particularly jointly owned property and there maybe claims being made on the estate, I would want it in writing from the clerk of the court that probate is not required or at the very elast from an officer of the court i.e. practising solicitor/barrister that probate is not required and keep that correspondence on record. regardless of any settlements that maybe achieved.

Hope that helps and sorry to have been longwinded and I am sure I have left something out as well.

I have discussd briefly with a VIP member that the time is approaching when I will have to execute a very complex will with several complicating issues. Luckily there is a legally qualified co-executor who will hold my hand but he has said it is important to be fully aware of the issues even with relatively simple wills.

regards
Garlok