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What is an Asset ??

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  • What is an Asset ??

    Hi
    i am new here so please bear with me.
    My husband died 6 weeks ago leaving a will which left all his assets to me. ie House (we were joint owners not tenants in common). At the time of his death we were overdrawn on our joint account. As he had Terminal Life Cover with his Life Insurance policy there was an ongoing claim when he died and this was paid out a week after his death- we had not expected him to pass away so soon.
    So my question is- is the money from this his asset or as it was paid after his death into our joint bank account does it belong to me? he had a couple of credit cards with outstanding balances and I am being chased by the Companies to pay them.
    i am so confused and would welcome any advice at this time.
    thanks
    susie
    Tags: None

  • #2
    Re: What is an Asset ??

    Hello and welcome to LB.

    So sorry for your loss, this must be a really hard time for you.

    I am not particularly well up on this type of situation, but there are a few basics. Firstly. has Probate been granted, if needed/applicable.
    Who are the Executors of the estate
    Have you notified any of your husband's creditors of his death?
    Did the credit cards have any PPI (Payment Protection Insurance) If so, you may be able to make a claim against that.

    You would need to find the T and C's of the credit card accounts to see what they say in terms of payment following the death of the account holder.

    I'm not sure on the question of whether the insurance claim is an asset, I woul'nt have thought so if you were the named beneficiary but have a look at this link What is probate? : Directgov - Government, citizens and rights

    and this one http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/dwp1027.pdf

    they may answer some of your questions.

    If you have any more questions please post again.
    Is no longer here

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: What is an Asset ??

      To be honest I am not sure. I just wanted to say that I am sorry for your loss. I hope everything gets sorted out for you soon.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: What is an Asset ??

        Hi and thank you for your kind words and posts.
        I am Graeme's executor and I have notified the CC Companies by letter with a copy of his death certificate.stating that he had no assets when he passed away which in truth he didnt. We were overdrawn at the bank and living on benefits .
        I did speak to a Probate solicitor who advised that I would not need to apply for Probate as he had no sole assets. The house was in joint names as was our bank account. I did also go to the bank with his DC and they have changed the bank account into my name only.
        As the Insurance was being claimed under the terminal Illness clause on the policy there was no need for me to be named as a beneficiary- I know its all a bit messy.......
        I believe that any monies in a joint account belong to the surviving person but the payout was not made until a week after Grae passed and into our joint account which is now in my name.
        Its tough enough dealing with the bereavement but I just wanted to find out where I stood in terms of the money being his or my asset.Confusing ....
        regards
        Susie

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: What is an Asset ??

          Personally, I don't see that it makes any difference. Even if it was/would have been his asset, it is now yours. Had the claim not have been paid under terminal illness, then presumably it would have been paid on death anyway, again making it yours as a beneficiary.

          Have you had any reply from the CC companies, or are you just trying sort things out in advance? Are the balances on the credit cards significant amounts?
          ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
          I see you're looking in Garlok - any ideas? Thanks
          Last edited by WendyB; 27th May 2011, 08:35:AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
          Is no longer here

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: What is an Asset ??

            My condolences goes out to you susiec, no doubt it has been a difficult time and the first 12 months can be hard.
            Last edited by leclerc; 28th May 2011, 17:23:PM.
            "Family means that no one gets forgotten or left behind"
            (quote from David Ogden Stiers)

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: What is an Asset ??

              Hi Wendy,

              My condolences to Susie at what is always a tragic time. I can't be sure of the situation really, my knowledge in these things only comes from experience in having to help with lasting powers of attorney (as they are now, "enduring" as they were) and of course dealing with the deaths of our respective parents which are a number of years ago now.

              We had a problem in my father's case where credit card companies, who actually employ people to scan the deaths columns like the Revenue and then make routine claims of card balances on the estate whether they are owed or not. Despicable bunch of thieves. In my father's case he didn't have any cards at all by that time and certainly no outstanding balances. It took a major upset with a solicitor at a bad time to get them to back off. However they did slink away to their stone in the end.

              What I am totally shocked about in this, is the fact is that the accounts appear not to have been frozen at the date of death until full probate had been granted. That is an error on the banks part and could make them liable for any losses. As far as I can see the payout from the insurance policy does NOT belong to the deceased's estate. Obviously there is a payout clause in the policy for terminal illness as there is in death hence the beneficiary being Susie who owns the payout solely and individually not severally. Terminal illness clauses usually embody (or used to) the principle that the payout is the "carer's" and is made to assist the carer to cope with the last days of a loved one. And before anyone jumps in, I am aware of the argument that there is and has been abuse of these clauses.

              The error is on the part of the bank who should in my humble opinion have made the payment direct to Susie in a dedicated sole user account.

              I know during my fathers case it came to light that there is a little known piece of law in which credit card debts die with the card holder. And I wish I could now find it. Unfortunately in the intervening years the law has become so twisted and manipulated to suit the banks and their cohorts that I would be unsure of my ground absolutely.

              I would also rattle the bars of the cages because, putting my cynical hat on again that payout only occurred because of the death not the terminal illness. Insurance companies will argue forever to deny liability until they cannot escape the liabilities and responsibilities they have incurred. I would take a rigid stance that this was a death payout not a terminal illness payout until they could prove different.

              I don'yt know if this is much help. I hope that it perhaps opens some avenues.

              Best regards
              Garlok.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: What is an Asset ??

                Garlok, susie has not said that the credit card companies have not frozen the accounts from the date of death which will most definitely have happened
                "Family means that no one gets forgotten or left behind"
                (quote from David Ogden Stiers)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: What is an Asset ??

                  Just to add to my previous, a fully attested Will seems to have been (engrossment is not now required) in place and I would be suspect of the advice that probate is not needed. Based on your own statements Susie, there is a property involved which WILL have to be dealt with and the deeds amended.

                  I think at worst you personally will be responsible for 50% of the overdraft on the joint account, however the card companies may seek payment based on the value of and any equity in the property, (50% of course belonged to your husband and hence his estate). They therefore can only make a claim on a pro rata basis. I would still rattle their cages as hard as I could though.

                  regards
                  Garlok
                  ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
                  LC please read what I actually said and do not make assumptions. It is the bank account that is required to be frozen until probate is granted. I made no mention of freezing the credit card accounts. Plus the card companies can do NOTHING until probate has been granted by the court. END OF.

                  Garlok.
                  Last edited by Garlok; 27th May 2011, 10:01:AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: What is an Asset ??

                    Originally posted by Garlok View Post
                    Just to add to my previous, a fully attested Will seems to have been (engrossment is not now required) in place and I would be suspect of the advice that probate is not needed. Based on your own statements Susie, there is a property involved which WILL have to be dealt with and the deeds amended.

                    I think at worst you personally will be responsible for 50% of the overdraft on the joint account, however the card companies may seek payment based on the value of and any equity in the property, (50% of course belonged to your husband and hence his estate). They therefore can only make a claim on a pro rata basis. I would still rattle their cages as hard as I could though.

                    regards
                    Garlok
                    ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
                    LC please read what I actually said and do not make assumptions. It is the bank account that is required to be frozen until probate is granted. I made no mention of freezing the credit card accounts. Plus the card companies can do NOTHING until probate has been granted by the court. END OF.

                    Garlok.
                    Would you care to correct yourself?
                    Post 1 states it was a joint account. Susiec has stated it was a joint account so the only assumption I have made with regards to freezing the account is that the credit card is likely to be in a sole name which HAS to be frozen. If you are stating the joint account has to be frozen then you are not correct.
                    "Family means that no one gets forgotten or left behind"
                    (quote from David Ogden Stiers)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: What is an Asset ??

                      Hi All
                      thank you for your posts.
                      The letter stating that the payout was being made under the terminal illness terms of the policy is dated 15.04.11 which was the date Graeme died. This letter I didnt receive until around the 21st April . I had by then registered the death and advised our Bank who changed the account over to my sole name. The CC balances are £400 , £1200 and a personal loan of around £4500. The CC companies have frozen the accounts as have the personal loan company.The overdraft of the account was taken from the insurance payout and I have not queried same as I felt this was our joint debt.
                      The equity in the house is around £40k . I have contacted our mortgage lender re Graemes death but have yet to hear back from them. Do I need to get the deeds amended or is that something they will do ? The Probate Solicitor stated that as the bank account and house were in joint names then I would not need to go to Probate as they would pass to me on ''Survivorship'. We were not tenants in common on the house .
                      Am I making sense ? probably not. I just dont want to get into trouble ......
                      Susie

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: What is an Asset ??

                        Susie, if the personal loans are in Graeme's sole name and credit cards in sole names and there are not assets in his sole name then the banks concerned cannot take any further payments from the account now in your name, they cannot take a penny from you. As there is no assets then the house does have to be changed to your name.
                        Was any of the loans or credit cards covered by Payment Protection Insurance? If they were then death is covered already. As you've said, there are no assets so those banks cannot ask you for money for debt that was not yours solely or jointly.
                        ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
                        Do house deeds have to be changed on death? | This is Money

                        The above article should cover deeds to the house.
                        Last edited by leclerc; 27th May 2011, 10:30:AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
                        "Family means that no one gets forgotten or left behind"
                        (quote from David Ogden Stiers)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: What is an Asset ??

                          I'm afraid LC that I will not correct myself because in the cases I have had to deal with in our own family, the need to obtain probate has FROZEN JOINT BANK ACCOUNTS

                          In each and every case we have had to deal with, the terms of each will have appointed a "family" executor and a "legal" i.e soliciotr executor jointly and in each and every case THE JOINT ACCOUNT HAS BEEN FROZEN where applicable until such times as probate has been granted by the court.

                          That is not supposition, assumption, or some banking code, that is historical FACT. Historical FACT cannot be changed. I should point out that in one unfortunate case a bank had been appointed as executor. Their ineptitude and suspect attitude caused the family to get the wills changed to a more appropriate method of execution prior to the person's demise! FACT NOT ASSUMPTION EXPERIENCE NOT ASSUMPTION!

                          Garlok

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: What is an Asset ??

                            Sorry, as far as probate and survivorship is concerned, I'm lost. Maybe have a read through this Probate service
                            and possibly a phonecall to them may help. They would be able to tell you whether probate is needed or not.

                            As far as getting into trouble goes, don't worry, Im sure you won't. As long as you have notified anyone who has to be notified, then just wait for them to come back to you. If the loan company and credit card company have frozen the accounts then leave it at that for now and wait to see if they contact you further, then deal with it if and when they do.

                            They usually want it paying out of the estate, but if there is no estate then that's just tough, they won't be paid.
                            Is no longer here

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: What is an Asset ??

                              Dealing with the financial affairs of someone who has died

                              CAB does not agree on that point either.

                              "Joint bank accounts

                              Couples may also have joint bank or building society accounts. If one dies, all the money will go to the surviving partner without the need for probate or letters of administration. The bank may need the see the death certificate in order to transfer the money to the other joint owner.
                              Probate or letters of administration may still be needed if there are other assets that are not jointly owned."
                              "Family means that no one gets forgotten or left behind"
                              (quote from David Ogden Stiers)

                              Comment

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