*** STRUCK OUT ** Claim for Deceased Mother's alleged owed money

[Peridot]

Re: Small Claim for Deceased Mother's alleged owed money

Hi Modder,
Not what you need when trying to deal with your mother's death.
How long had your mother and this person been in a 'relationship' Did he actually live there with her or just visited (which I think is the case but wanted to check). Maybe a daft question but why did he have your mother's bank cards etc? Can you identify what is happening in transactions that have been going on in the account before she passed away?
Have you disposed of everything from the flat now? I appreciate the Local Authority do have very tight timescales for clearing properties. What happened to the washing machine. Was there anything of value disposed of or was everything more charity shop type items? Have you kept any items other than photos. I also assume the photos are family photos?
I notice in the claim form there is apparently talk of a solicitors letter to him about clearing the flat. What was said in tis letter and was there any correspondence/contact between you and him following such a letter? What contact has there been with this chap since your mum died? Were you aware that some items at your mother's flat were his?
Have you contacted the warden at the sheltered accommodation to shed some light on the relationship and what was happening?
I note that the caveat expires 1st Sept unless renewed by then. I assume that you have not placed a warning? Do you know if he is intending to renew the caveat? Obviously you don't want to flag it, but thought worth mentioning.
If the caveat is not renewed it will lapse allowing the Grant of Letters of Administration to be granted. You haven't indicated whether you were intending or needed, to get a Grant. Do you know what is happening with the pension? Had your mother nominated it to you or someone else?
Did your mother have any other debts that need to be settled following her death?
Having let the bank know of your mother's passing they will have frozen the account. Have you received statements yet? Do check what if any transactions occurred after she died, bearing in mind he had bank cards etc.
Lots of questions I'm afraid just to try and get a handle on where this is coming from and the possible options for you.

[Peridot]

Re: Small Claim for Deceased Mother's alleged owed money

Sorry another query, the letter from the Probate Registry regarding the caveat. Is this a copy of the letter that the person making the small claim has sent to you?

[modder]

Re: Small Claim for Deceased Mother's alleged owed money

You mentioned that your mum had carers, do you know what company this was and have you contacted them to see what they know about the purchase of the washing machine and the alleged loan agreement your mum was suppose to have with this individual? It's amazing how much carers overhear and know about their clients! If they can dispute the claims the individual is making they might be willing to write a supporting statement which could be very helpful to you.

It sounds like your mum had very little capital so it's extremely likely that your mum's care was arranged and possibly paid for social services. She would have had a care manger assigned to her in this case. Do you know who that was and if so give them a call as they also might have information regarding your mum's interaction with this individual

I work in Adult services for KCC within the Thanet office but I'm not within the Adult community team, I'm part of a different section but I'll happily offer any general advice I can but I can't give specific advice about an individual - you need to speak to the care manager regarding obtaining information.

The best number to call is 03000 416161 (office hours). 03000 419191 (out of office hours). These are the numbers for Adult social care and if you give them your mum's details they will be able to tell you if she had a care manager and if so their details etc.

I hope this helps - good luck xx

Thank you for your reply.

This message prompted me to call her last known carer. She was more private care from what she explains, the carer explains the last lot of carers were robbing her and there were still cases still owing her for this! The private carer in question explains that she bacame mum's carer through a friend of mum's. The carer but was part of her last months and was indeed with mum a few days before her passing. According to the carer the claimant had a degree of control and dependency on her higher rate of support. I.e. to support a drug habit (cannabis). The claimant would often change the pin to her cards and was very much aware of key dates of her benefits. It has been suggested that the claimant made a prominent remark to access to property for bank cards and such. I have left a v/mail with the officer who dealt with the case to see if he can comment/remeber the events or offer anythying of value. Nonetheless the carer states that the claimant owed your mum money and not the latter.

[modder]

Re: Small Claim for Deceased Mother's alleged owed money

Firstly I'm not a solicitor, so someone with better contract law knowledge than me would need to confirm things.

I would say obtaining bank statements is a must if you don't already have them, the bank should be able to provide them although not in time to submit the defence I'd suspect and you'd be looking for the money leaving her bank for the Washing Machine.


The cardboard scrap bit will be interesting to hear about and extract from here is particularly interesting: http://www.a4id.org/wp-content/uploa...t-a-glance.pdf

"Many social arrangements do not amount to contracts because they are notintended to be legally binding. Equally, many domestic arrangements, such asbetween husband and wife, or between parent and child, lack force becausethe parties did not intend them to have legal consequences. In Balfour vBalfour [1919] 2 KB 571, a husband who worked abroad promised to pay anallowance of £30 per month to his wife, who was in England. The wife'sattempt to enforce this promise failed: the parties did not intend thearrangement to be legally binding. (Note that in addition, the wife had notprovided any consideration.)"

I would say that you could argue that the social situation of your mother and the claimant was such that the IOU was not an intention to create legal relations, so as such the IOU is unenforceable.

It's a really unfortunate situation, the claim form seems to be the scrawls of a crazy man, but the fact that he's been able to place a caveat and submit this claim makes me wary. Don't underestimate him, make sure you gather everything you need as I think he's a bit more with it than he'd like you to believe.

I agree calculated person with same prior experience in these proceedings.

When i saw the scrap note I laughed and thought it to be a joke at the time.

How can a scrap piece of paper without a date and a suspect looking signature be grounds for law.

[modder]

Re: Small Claim for Deceased Mother's alleged owed money

Hi Modder,
Not what you need when trying to deal with your mother's death.
How long had your mother and this person been in a 'relationship' Did he actually live there with her or just visited (which I think is the case but wanted to check).

I think they were initially together for a few years. The last few years was a mutual frinedship understanding without affection (as mum would state) meeting each others individuals needs. Mum mobility/conveneince, the defendant some financial support.

Maybe a daft question but why did he have your mother's bank cards etc?
Mum struggled with mobility so sought support from the claimant, hence the argument for the washing machine. Interegating the carer she explains your mum was on higher benefit and was supporting herself and the claimants habits.

Can you identify what is happening in transactions that have been going on in the account before she passed away?
I need to look into her statertements further. I dont appear to have the full statement history account on one of her accounts.

Have you disposed of everything from the flat now? I appreciate the Local Authority do have very tight timescales for clearing properties. What happened to the washing machine. Was there anything of value disposed of or was everything more charity shop type items? Have you kept any items other than photos. I also assume the photos are family photos?
The housing association gave me dealine which i almost missed and incurred additional cost due to police officer not handing in the keys, on our first attempt to clear the propoerty (driving 100 miles). All the white goods, cooker, fridge, kettle, microwave, toaster, blender food in cupwere given the to claimant. We took familly photos and what relevant paperwork we found.

I notice in the claim form there is apparently talk of a solicitors letter to him about clearing the flat. What was said in tis letter and was there any correspondence/contact between you and him following such a letter?
I cannot recall any solicitor talk in his claim ( i need to read over again). This is the first I have heard of any solictor let alone any correspondance.

What contact has there been with this chap since your mum died? Were you aware that some items at your mother's flat were his?
I went for a wide birth on the claimant. My sole focus was on laying mum to rest. He made an appearance after the funeral proceeding accompanied by a physco guy and what transpired to be an epileptic lady. The physco was very hostile to us all, I had a quite word with him and thanked him for coming. He swanned off (literally screaming and waving his hands about while running away from us) upon which the lady tagging along had a fit right next to us... Just to paint a picture if I may. Sorry im going of tangent...

I had a call from his social or something worker a month or so aft... Demanding I owed money etc. My tongue at the time was bitter and I was shacking in anger so I let lose on the poor lady, but not at her.

Have you contacted the warden at the sheltered accommodation to shed some light on the relationship and what was happening?
No, perhaps i need to look into this.

I note that the caveat expires 1st Sept unless renewed by then. I assume that you have not placed a warning? Do you know if he is intending to renew the caveat? Obviously you don't want to flag it, but thought worth mentioning.
If the caveat is not renewed it will lapse allowing the Grant of Letters of Administration to be granted. You haven't indicated whether you were intending or needed, to get a Grant.
Up until this moment i wasn't aware of what a probate was. I didn't receive any letter or warning this was happening. Given the state of mind and angle I would suspect a renewal.

Is there anything I can do at this stage regarding the probate? Appeal it?

Do you know what is happening with the pension? Had your mother nominated it to you or someone else?
I have informed them of the events and supplied relevant documentation. Mum left no will.

Did your mother have any other debts that need to be settled following her death?
Yes a few which transpired... Capital One a few hundred pounds, a few debt collectors, a local lender over 50's scheme or something abot £1k. The usual utilities of which the majority was current. I had a 6 month mail forwarding in place to try and deal with her affairs. After the 6 months I never renewed the forwarding. I cant figure out if I may live to regret this action!

Having let the bank know of your mother's passing they will have frozen the account. Have you received statements yet? Do check what if any transactions occurred after she died, bearing in mind he had bank cards etc.
The carer had put a stop on her accounts the same day, suspecting he would try to get his hands on it. I am waiting for the pc in question to call back to see if he was pushing to get these items. However he was the one who found her dead so he would have had enough time to take what he needed.

Lots of questions I'm afraid just to try and get a handle on where this is coming from and the possible options for you.

These are all amazing questions so thank you very much. The proboate is a copy he has included with a copy of mums death cert! How can he get these!

Looking forward to some thoughts. Work was full on today so will need to submit my intenet to defend reply tomorrow.

[Peridot]

Re: Small Claim for Deceased Mother's alleged owed money

Hi again,
Ok I think we're getting a bit confused about probate etc. What has been done is a caveat has been placed with the probate registry. This is what the letter that states it remains in place till the 1st Sept. while a caveat is in place no grant will be granted. A Grant of Probate is what you would apply for if there was a will or where there is no will, as in this case a Grant of letters of administration is what you would apply for.
You can give a warning which would mean that the person who placed the caveat has to make an appearance, not in person but they would have to give reasons why the caveat should remain in place. BUT as this caveat potentially expires in 10 days I wouldn't do anything yet. We can give you the link what you would need to do if that became necessary, in a bit.
It sounds like there may not be sufficient funds in the estate to settle any debts that your mother had possibly. There is a really strict order for who should be paid any debts and if there is not enough to cover all debts (excluding his claim) then the creditors would only receive a percentage of the debt. It is very strict how debts are dealt with.
Putting the 'claim' aside I think you will need to apply for the Grant at some point so that you can place notices for creditors to come forward otherwise you may find creditors perusing you in due course. Don't panic it can all be dealt with. Have you got the death certificate so you can contact the relevant banks etc to obtain confirmation of the money your mum had when she died?
Here is the link to the govt website that will walk through what you need to be doing https://www.gov.uk/wills-probate-inh...t-leave-a-will
I would suggest you get the paperwork underway irrelevant of the caveat at the moment. Thenif he doesn't renew the caveat you can appply for the grant asap.
Please don't worry about this you will need to plod through things but we can help out and point you in the right direction any time.
As far as the claim is concerned I would acknowledge indicating you are defending the claim. You can then work on the defence so you have some breathing room.

[des8]

Re: Small Claim for Deceased Mother's alleged owed money

A question for @Peridot
This would appear to be a small estate for which probate is not required.
As a caveat only prevents the grant of probate, in this case would it prevent the estate being settled by the son?
He could easily have settled the estate in ignorance of the caveat

edit: just realised intestate so will need letters of administration!

[Peridot]

Re: Small Claim for Deceased Mother's alleged owed money

You are right it may not be necessary Des8. I am maybe jumping the gun but it is important all debts are located and dealt with appropriately. This may assist modder https://bereavementadvice.org/topics...olvent-estates
There are some useful pointers, you do need to establish exactly what needs to be dealt with and in what order of priority. Make sure you have contacted all the necessary financial institutions and pensions etc so you can regroup and decide on next steps.

[modder]

Re: Small Claim for Deceased Mother's alleged owed money

You are right it may not be necessary Des8. I am maybe jumping the gun but it is important all debts are located and dealt with appropriately. This may assist modder https://bereavementadvice.org/topics...olvent-estates
There are some useful pointers, you do need to establish exactly what needs to be dealt with and in what order of priority. Make sure you have contacted all the necessary financial institutions and pensions etc so you can regroup and decide on next steps.

Good Afternoon Peridot,

Thank you for your feedback, I have since documented the facts and figures with the paperwork at hand.

Just chased up the claims line and the defense deadline is 18th September.

I'm not sure how best to put a defence together, I appreciate i have been off the ball with this.

My Train of thought:
1) Challenge the sum being claimed
2) Reject all small items and jewellery claims as these pass on with the estate as suggested on here
3) Reply indicating that money is owed to other institutions and money owed for funeral expenses come first, sum available is a mere £800 in current account. There is an overpayment of housing being chased some £400, debt collectors chasing some £1000, Credit Card £290 >>> this may be for the washing machine? No other figures can be seen for the washing machine but having spoken with a few close parties they all stating he is trying his luck.
4) Not sure how to deal with the hand written IOU

Welcoming any input on this and please feel free to ask questions.

Thanking you all in advance

[modder]

Re: Small Claim for Deceased Mother's alleged owed money

Just a quick update. My partner just emailed these to me came in the post today.
Can someone please translate these for us, i do not know of the lady in the second letter Carole!

[jaguarsuk]

Re: Small Claim for Deceased Mother's alleged owed money

Just a quick update. My partner just emailed these to me came in the post today.
Can someone please translate these for us, i do not know of the lady in the second letter Carole!

The first is to the Claimant telling him that the scrawls he's entered on the form you showed us earlier in the thread are not acceptable and that he is to enter a Particulars of Claim compliant with the courts rules (CPR), but if he doesn't his claim will be thrown out.

It will be telling if he actually enters compliant POC, as I suspected earlier in the thread he's more with it than he'd have you believe and that could reveal his true colours. And if I was wrong and he submits a load of tosh again, then his claim will be thrown out and that's great for you.

The second seems to be an order sent to you in error for a completely different case, either post it back to the address on it informing them of their mistake or email them with the case number to inform them: ccmcce-filing@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk

[modder]

Re: Small Claim for Deceased Mother's alleged owed money

The first is to the Claimant telling him that the scrawls he's entered on the form you showed us earlier in the thread are not acceptable and that he is to enter a Particulars of Claim compliant with the courts rules (CPR), but if he doesn't his claim will be thrown out.

It will be telling if he actually enters compliant POC, as I suspected earlier in the thread he's more with it than he'd have you believe and that could reveal his true colours. And if I was wrong and he submits a load of tosh again, then his claim will be thrown out and that's great for you.

The second seems to be an order sent to you in error for a completely different case, either post it back to the address on it informing them of their mistake or email them with the case number to inform them: ccmcce-filing@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk

Thanks for translating Jaguarsuk this now makes sense.

I'm confused as to why I must now submit a defence by the 18th Sept if they are rejecting his original claim on the grounds of the tosh he has put together.

Should I call the small claims and clarify if I do or do not need to submit my defence? Or do i just proceed with a defence?

Seems rather odd that they stated on the phone earlier that my defence is due on the 18th Sept.

[Amethyst]

Re: Small Claim for Deceased Mother's alleged owed money

I think I would give them a call. It's most likely there is a bar in place on the file pending him filing a coherent POC - to prevent him getting a default judgment - and your defence will be due in 14 days after the new POC - but it is best to check direct with the court.

( also tell them you received Carole's order - as they will need to resend it to the right place )

[modder]

Re: Small Claim for Deceased Mother's alleged owed money

I think I would give them a call. It's most likely there is a bar in place on the file pending him filing a coherent POC - to prevent him getting a default judgment - and your defence will be due in 14 days after the new POC - but it is best to check direct with the court.

( also tell them you received Carole's order - as they will need to resend it to the right place )

Thanks Amethyst,

I just came off the phone and they are indeed stating that no further action is required from me at this stage (not what they said earlier on today but hey ho), that is unless the claimant submits proof of the particulars of the claim at which point I will again have 14-days to defend.

The rep I spoke with did initially state that there's no harm in submitting a defence, however i explained that that would perhaps be in vein if no action is taken by the claimant, so he agreed that I should wait for correspondence / 22nd September.

PS. I explained the erroneous order received and they have updated their records accordingly.

Thanks again and I guess I play the waiting game for now. I have a sneaky suspicion, as others have stated, the claimant may well conjure something within this time frame.

[jaguarsuk]

Re: Small Claim for Deceased Mother's alleged owed money

Thanks Amethyst,

I just came off the phone and they are indeed stating that no further action is required from me at this stage (not what they said earlier on today but hey ho), that is unless the claimant submits proof of the particulars of the claim at which point I will again have 14-days to defend.

The rep I spoke with did initially state that there's no harm in submitting a defence, however i explained that that would perhaps be in vein if no action is taken by the claimant, so he agreed that I should wait for correspondence / 22nd September.

PS. I explained the erroneous order received and they have updated their records accordingly.

Thanks again and I guess I play the waiting game for now. I have a sneaky suspicion, as others have stated, the claimant may well conjure something within this time frame.

It's worthwhile waiting to defend because if he does put in a compliant POC you need to defend that, not the apparent scrawls of a mad man.

Do come back to let us know what you receive, whether that's a POC or order striking out the claim.