Joint Account Mess

[meg22]

Hello,

I'd be really grateful for some advice please.

I'm an executor on my late Mum's estate, along with my two older brothers. My Mum's estate should consist of her house and savings, approx £42K, which is divided equally between the three of us.

The problem is that oldest brother was manging my Mum's finances for the last three years of her life, initially informally using her bank card, but then he took her to the bank to set up a formal arrangement. Middle brother and I only learnt, after her death, that he converted my Mum's bank accounts to Joint Accounts.(No LPA) My Mum was very frail when he did this, and wouldn't have known about the survivorship rules and wouldn't have wanted this money to pass to him. Older brother has been to the bank with the death certificate and the accounts are now in his name - the bank won't even give middle brother or me statements for the accounts.

I don't think older brother really thinks the money is his but he is continually trying to bully middle brother and me and hold us to ransom to try and get his own way. He's also done something dodgy relating to my Mum's social care package which he organized. Based on things he has said verbally, and in an email to us, we think he concealed my Mum's savings from the Local Authority to get free care . He moved £25K to his own bank account, when my Mum was in hospital and looked as though she would need care, and middle brother and I have got the bank statements from my Mum's house, showing this. The only way we would know this for sure though is to try and get my Mum's social care record.

So older brother is unwilling to include my Mum's savings in the Probate application and her estate, I think because he is worried the Council may find out about them. Initially he wanted middle brother and me to agree to keep the money out of the Probate application and then he told us that he would privately share it out once the estate administration had been completed, which we wouldn't agree to. Now, he is suggesting making a Deed Of Variation on the estate to reduce his portion, so that we would in effect be getting equal shares, but in a round about way, and middle brother and I would have to concede that the money in the Joint Accounts is his and therefore be excluded from my Mum's estate.

Middle brother and I have been to see a dispute solicitor, and told him everything, including the possible social care fraud, who advised us that we could potentially bring a claim against older brother for the return of the money to the estate but both middle brother and I are worried about stress and costs escalating.

So my question is should middle brother and I consider agreeing to the Deed of Variation, which would eventually give us equal shares, or should we consider bringing a claim to retrieve the money for the estate?

Thank you.

[atticus]

Obviously the deed of variation would be cheaper and less hassle than what may be an unnecessary and expensive court case. Can acceptable terms be agreed?

[Pezza54]

What was the value of your late mum's house at the time of her death?
If your father is deceased, was he married to your mum when he died and did he leave all his estate to your mum?
Probate may not be required depending on the value of the house.

[meg22]

Obviously the deed of variation would be cheaper and less hassle than what may be an unnecessary and expensive court case. Can acceptable terms be agreed?

Thank you for your reply Atticus.

The Deed of Variation has only just been suggested and there is no detail as yet. We're not even quite sure how much money there is in the Joint Accounts. Older brother isn't engaging with middle brother and me at the moment - we received this 'offer' via a solicitors letter. He is also now refusing to use the solicitor we had all previously agreed to apply for Probate for us and wants to use his own solicitor instead. So I think there needs to be some negotiation yet. The original solicitor is suggesting that he liaise with the new solicitor to represent our interests but is that workable? Presumably there can only be one solicitor applying for Probate?

[meg22]

What was the value of your late mum's house at the time of her death?
If your father is deceased, was he married to your mum when he died and did he leave all his estate to your mum?
Probate may not be required depending on the value of the house.

Thank you for your reply Pezza54.

My Mum's house has been valued at approx £170,000. Yes my father is already deceased, he was married to my Mum and as far as I know he left all his estate to my Mum. So I think Probate is required?

[Pezza54]

Yes, but as the value of your mum's estate is under £325k it is an excepted estate meaning that a full account for IHT purposes is not required and probate should be straight forward. The estate agent and property conveyancer will want a copy of the probate certificate.to advertise and sell the property.

Is your eldest brother still prepared to transfer or write a cheque for £14k (a third of your mum's savings) for you and your brother? I am not sure why you refused his offer. You will all be worse off with a deed of variation due to the legal fees.

[PallasAthena]

Who are the Executors named in you Mother's Will


Incidentally, you mentioned a solicitor "applying for probate". Just for clarity, only Executors can apply for Probate, the solicitor is just there to advise the Executor(s) how to complete the application form. (Unless the solicitors are named in the Will as an Executor in their own right.)

[Pezza54]

The executors can use the government online IHT checker to calculate approximate values of the gross estate, net estate and net qualifying estate and then apply for probate online transferring the values. Only one executor can apply but all executors will be named on the certificate.

[meg22]

Hello,

The situation I posted about last year unfortunately still isn’t resolved and we’ve not made much progress. I’d be really grateful for further advice please.

Last year older brother was implying that my Mums money was intact in the joint bank accounts and that he had inherited outside the Will via the survivorship rules. He was wanting middle brother and me to agree to a Deed of Variation but he also wanted us to agree to keep the money off the Probate form and only include my Mums house in the Probate and IHT estate values, I think because he concealed my Mums money from the Council during the Council care assessment and is worried they will find out about it from Probate or from HMRC. So middle brother and I were being asked to lie on the Probate form which we weren’t comfortable with even though it’s an excepted estate.

Older brother was keeping us very much in the dark about my Mums finances generally and wouldn’t answer our queries. I eventually managed to obtain bank statements via a complaint to the bank and rather than the money being intact in the account as was being claimed, older brother had pretty much emptied the accounts during the last year of my Mums life, transferring large sums to his own bank account, £40K, when she was in hospital/hospice without my Mums knowledge or consent. My Mum was also the sole contributor to the accounts.

Our solicitor wrote to him in March saying that the money was part of my Mums estate and asking him for an explanation for the withdrawals but didn’t get a response. Communication generally has broken down as he stopped responding to our emails about a year ago.

Middle brother and I are struggling to know what to do. One option is to pursue a claim against him - our solicitor has indicated we’ve got a reasonable case for ‘Undue Influence’. We’ve got bank statements and medical records. My Mum had mental capacity when the accounts were converted but was on strong pain medication, (side effects – confusion & inability to think clearly), and won’t have known what she was signing. My Mums Will is also quite clear – all three of us executors and the estate divided equally between us. Our share of the money is £14,000 each but its whether we can fund a claim and whether it’s worth the risk and stress.

Another option is we issue older brother with a Citation to try and move things along and force older brother to act but would that achieve anything given we’re struggling to agree the finances and estate values? I’d be really grateful for advice about Citations please and how they work. Also, has older brother intermeddled as an executor – the only things he has done is paid the funeral bill and clear my Mums house a little bit and taken some items for himself?

Sorry for the long post – any advice appreciated. Thanks.

[Pezza54]

You haven't mentioned your late mum's house. Has it been sold? If it has, what happened to the proceeds?
If you haven't obtained probate, you should apply yourself on the internet. It is straight forward as an excepted estate. You have estate values (50% of any money left in joint accounts at time of death)
Legal costs of a court claim would severely diminish the estate value, and if the case dragged on there might be nothing left in the estate. If you funded the legal costs yourself you would be taking a big financial risk

[Pezza54]

In England and Wales, not all executors have to agree to sell estate property before it is sold.
If your eldest brother refuses to sell the property, but you and your other brother agree to sell it, as you have the majority it can be sold (provided you have probate)

[Pezza54]

You stated you believed your brother transferred funds from the joint accounts so the money was not taken into account during the LA assessment for funding care fees
Your mother owned a property and the LA would have taken the value of this property into account. If your mother did not have enough money left in bank accounts to self fund, the LA would have loaned money to pay fees under a DPA (deferred payment agreement)

[meg22]

Thanks for your replies Pezza54

We haven't applied for probate yet or put my Mums house up for sale as we can't agree.

Most of the joint account money, £40K, was transferred to older brothers bank account before my Mum died so there was very little left at the time of death. We're getting no response from older brother as to whether the withdrawals were 'gift's; or 'loans' so even if I applied for Probate myself online I'm not sure how I'd work out the estate values - it's how the joint account money appears in the estate values on the Probate form that's the problem.

I'm struggling to see anything similar to my situation online. There's this: Lifetime Gifts (possible financial abuse by attorneys) and IHT403 - Trusts Discussion - The Trusts Discussion Forum but it is for an attorney whereas my brother was managing my Mums money via a joint account with no LPA

My Mum wasn't in residential care - she had carers at home so her house won't have been taken into account by the council - only her savings should have been taken into account. The carers were from a care company but there is nothing in the bank statements to suggest my Mum is contributing to her care.

[meg22]

Another problem that I forgot to mention is my Mums Will is held at a solicitors and we've all got to sign for it and provide ID for it to be released. Middle brother and I have only got a copy from my Mums house.

[Pezza54]

You should check with the LA and/or private company how your mother's home care was being paid, how much per month and the total bill
Is it possible your brother was paying these bills plus other expenses from his own account?

Who is paying the utility bills and council tax for the property?