Lifetime Trust and Estate expenses

[Philomena]

Hi, I joined your forum the other day. I am not able to get my co executor to pay to me what I am due. Can anyone advise me what I can do

My stepmother has died and I am a joint executor in respect of her estate. She was holding the property in which she lived on trust, after the death of her husband and the property now passes to his grandchild (my co-executor) and his sister.

We are unable to agree what is due to be repaid under the terms of the Will. My co-executor has repaid me for the maintenance and insurance on the property,l and £1,000.00 for doing all the probate and putting the house into his name. The Inheritance Tax Office have looked at the will and told me that I am able to claim for the utility bills, cleaning and gardening and insurance, but not the maintenance. The Will says:-

My trustees shall permit my wife to reside therein so long as she so desires and so long as she shall so desire and so reside the said trust for sale shall not be exercised without the consent of my wife I declare that no involuntary ceasing to reside in said property shall be construed as a ceasing to reside therein and that such residence shall in any case be subject to the payment by my wife of the rates taxes and cost of keeping the said property in reasonable repair but my trustees shall at of the cost of my residuary estate keep the said property insured against fire and damage by aircraft and pay all outgoings other than those above mentioned

I have sent a solicitors letter, and have been paid for the maintenance and insurance, which is less than the utility bills. The solicitor advised me to bank what I have been given and try to get the rest out of him, but has now said he is leaving the company and there is no-one else there that can deal with the matter. Can I take him to the small claims court for what I am owed,

[Amethyst]

I think that the Inheritance Tax Office are saying you can include the utilitys, costs of cleaning, garden and insurances in the estate accounts for purposes of reducing the tax bill, rather than you are entitled to claim them from the trustees/beneficiaries. I'll tag Peridot and des8 for you though.

Are you a residual beneficiary to the estate? Have you been paying out for utilities/cleaning etc inbetween the death and distribution of the estate ?

[Philomena]

Hi, I joined your forum the other day. I am not able to get my co executor to pay to me what I am due. Can anyone advise me what I can do

My stepmother has died and I am a joint executor in respect of her estate. She was holding the property in which she lived on trust, after the death of her husband and the property now passes to his grandchild (my co-executor) and his sister.

We are unable to agree what is due to be repaid under the terms of the Will. My co-executor has repaid me for the maintenance and insurance on the property,l and £1,000.00 for doing all the probate and putting the house into his name. The Inheritance Tax Office have looked at the will and told me that I am able to claim for the utility bills, cleaning and gardening and insurance, but not the maintenance. The Will says:-

My trustees shall permit my wife to reside therein so long as she so desires and so long as she shall so desire and so reside the said trust for sale shall not be exercised without the consent of my wife I declare that no involuntary ceasing to reside in said property shall be construed as a ceasing to reside therein and that such residence shall in any case be subject to the payment by my wife of the rates taxes and cost of keeping the said property in reasonable repair but my trustees shall at of the cost of my residuary estate keep the said property insured against fire and damage by aircraft and pay all outgoings other than those above mentioned

I have sent a solicitors letter, and have been paid for the maintenance and insurance, which is less than the utility bills. The solicitor advised me to bank what I have been given and try to get the rest out of him, but has now said he is leaving the company and there is no-one else there that can deal with the matter. Can I take him to the small claims court for what I am owed,

I am a beneficiary to the estate of my stepmother, but am not a beneficiary to the will of her deceased husband which leaves the house in which my stepmother lived to his two grandchildren. My stepmother did not want to take any money out of the trust fund while she was alive as the interest on it formed part of her income.

I have been paid out for some of the maintenance and insurance that my stepmother paid out for on the house, since her husband died in 2001, and the utility bills for the year after my stepmother died, that I have paid.

I really wanted to know what my stepmother is entitled to claim for out of the trust fund of her husband's will i.e. what the trust fund is prepared to pay under "all outgoings". the trusts settlements & estates manual GOV/UK 8750 says a "a trustee may pay expenses that are the personal liability of a beneficiary. for example a beneficiary may occupy a property belonging to the trust. the trustee could pay items that are the occupier's responsibility as opposed to the owner (trustees) responsibility. these might include gas electricity & telephone bills, rates or council tax".

I have been paid for some of the maintenance and insurance, (which is less than the utility bills), and really wanted to know if I could claim this in the small claims court, as I believe it would cost thousands to take to him to court over the will. I would be very very grateful for any advice you can offer me.

[des8]

If I understand the position properly:
As executor of your step mother's estate you want to claim certain costs she incurred living in the house owned by the trust set up by her late husband.
Under the terms of the will your step mother was liable for "the cost of keeping the said property in reasonable repair"

However, whilst her husband's executors have paid "maintenance" they have failed to meet the utility bills, which presumably come under the heading "all outgoings".

This would mean you as the executor of your stepmother suing the trustees of the trust set up by her husband..

Whilst actions involving trusts are generally heard in the Chancery Division of the High Court. the county court does have jurisdiction up to its limit in amount or value of claim.

At least I think that's the position, but really hoping Peridot will add her pennyworth!

[Philomena]

If I understand the position properly:
As executor of your step mother's estate you want to claim certain costs she incurred living in the house owned by the trust set up by her late husband.
Under the terms of the will your step mother was liable for "the cost of keeping the said property in reasonable repair"

However, whilst her husband's executors have paid "maintenance" they have failed to meet the utility bills, which presumably come under the heading "all outgoings".

This would mean you as the executor of your stepmother suing the trustees of the trust set up by her husband..

Whilst actions involving trusts are generally heard in the Chancery Division of the High Court. the county court does have jurisdiction up to its limit in amount or value of claim.

At least I think that's the position, but really hoping Peridot will add her pennyworth!

That is completely the case,l I really appreciate your understanding of my situation and taking the trouble to reply. What I really would like advice on is what can I claim for under “all outgoings”. My solicitor (and the IHT Office) said I could claim for utility bills, cleaning and gardening (but not maintenance) and wrote a letter stating this. Then she passed the file to someone else and he said he thought that cleaning and gardening would come under keeping the property in reasonable repair, he said it would cost thousands to pursue this through the courts and advised me to bank what I had and then try to get the rest. Then the original solicitor said she was leaving and there was no one else that could deal with this, which is why I find myself in this situation. The trustees were my stepmother and her husband's grandson (one of the main beneficiaries of her husband’s estate, which is the sale of the house proceeds), who is also my co-executor of my stepmother’s estate. I am the beneficiary of my stepmother's estate, but not her deceased husband's estate.

[des8]

How much (ball park figure) are you looking to claim?

[Philomena]

That is completely the case,l I really appreciate your understanding of my situation and taking the trouble to reply. What I really would like advice on is what can I claim for under “all outgoings”. My solicitor (and the IHT Office) said I could claim for utility bills, cleaning and gardening (but not maintenance) and wrote a letter stating this. Then she passed the file to someone else and he said he thought that cleaning and gardening would come under keeping the property in reasonable repair, he said it would cost thousands to pursue this through the courts and advised me to bank what I had and then try to get the rest. Then the original solicitor said she was leaving and there was no one else that could deal with this, which is why I find myself in this situation. The trustees were my stepmother and her husband's grandson (one of the main beneficiaries of her husband’s estate, which is the sale of the house proceeds), who is also my co-executor of my stepmother’s estate. I am the beneficiary of my stepmother's estate, but not her deceased husband's estate.

Its around £2,000.00 which is the difference between the outgoings and the maintenance, and my co-executor wanted all the furniture kept in the property till one week before completion. I intended to send items to auction, but one month prior to this his sister took all the furniture from the house (including furniture belonging to my stepmother and my mother and father) from the house. He has offered me £140 for all the furniture. I told him I wanted £2,000.00. I have claimed no executors expenses, but he has paid me £1,000 doing the probate and putting the house in their name. This may seem petty, but my stepmother was a very wealthy woman when she married their grandad (they were married for 26 years), who had some savings and his old age pension. It was my stepmothers choice to travel the world with their grandfather, and she had maintained the house for just over 40 years, half of one of the bonds in the trust fund had been her money. All of their grandfather's clothing etc was still in the house, as he had lived there since 1946 it has taken me months to have everything sent to the hospice as they both wanted. I would be grateful for any advice you can offer me.

[des8]

When the solicitor said it would cost thousands to pursue this matter through the courts, he was of course referring to his costs, which would not be recoverable if the claim was allocated to the small claims track.

As the amount is relatively minor, I think you should be able to pursue it through the county court, and represent yourself.

There is always the possibility that if you initiated a claim, the trustees would meet it just to avoid the cost and stress of court proceedings, but conversely they might dig their heels in

[Philomena]

When the solicitor said it would cost thousands to pursue this matter through the courts, he was of course referring to his costs, which would not be recoverable if the claim was allocated to the small claims track.

As the amount is relatively minor, I think you should be able to pursue it through the county court, and represent yourself.

There is always the possibility that if you initiated a claim, the trustees would meet it just to avoid the cost and stress of court proceedings, but conversely they might dig their heels in

Thank you very much for this advice it has been most helpful, and I now intend to write to the executor to ask him for the balance. Do you think all outgoings means all the utility bills, the co-executor's solicitor has said that these are personal and can't be paid/ that it would be most unusual. My solicitor has said it is all utility bills, and not the maintenance of the house. If anyone can confirm what they think I can claim for or add anything, I would be obliged. As I said my co-executor has paid me for £1,100.00 for doing the probate/estate forms of my stepmother and putting the house in their name. It took me months to clear all their grandfathers clothing and possessions out of the house, I do not know if I can charge for that also, but obviously I had to clear all of my stepmother's stuff out of the house anyway.

[des8]

Generally executors can only claim out of pocket expenses incurred in the course of administering estate unless otherwise authorised by the will.
Your time comes free!

There is no definition of "all outgoings", but it is generally taken to mean all expenses incurred with the house other than personal items e.g. food, newspapers etc.
Basically as a co executor you should only have received out of pocket expenses for dealing with probate etc, so you are about £1000 short
if you take the payment as being towards the outgoings.
Whether it is worth pursuing the outstanding amount, taking into account possible costs and stress, is your decision.

[Philomena]

Generally executors can only claim out of pocket expenses incurred in the course of administering estate unless otherwise authorised by the will.
Your time comes free!

There is no definition of "all outgoings", but it is generally taken to mean all expenses incurred with the house other than personal items e.g. food, newspapers etc.
Basically as a co executor you should only have received out of pocket expenses for dealing with probate etc, so you are about £1000 short
if you take the payment as being towards the outgoings.
Whether it is worth pursuing the outstanding amount, taking into account possible costs and stress, is your decision.

Thank you very much for your response. Do you think I can claim for maintenance as well as utility bills. I originally had assumed that my stepmother was in a similar position as that of a tenant, and the landlord (trustees) would pay for all maintenance such as new roofs, and painting of the outside of the house and the tenant would pay for things such as internal decoration. My stepmother has paid for roof repairs to the house and a new garage roof, and had the house painted outside every 4 years, new boiler, gas fires etc, as well as the fact that the extensive gardens maintained and had all hedges cut. I have felt very much at a disadvantage as I had assumed we would discuss this together and agree things between us as we all had a harmonious relationship and attended family weekends together for 40 years, my co executor has sent me a cheque for 75% of the maintenance, in fact my stepmother paid him £500 to fit the boiler for her (and then had to pay someone else to rectify what he had not done correctly)!

[des8]

It is sad to see family relationships deteriorate in circumstances like this, and unfortunately pursuing what is due could make reconciliation more difficult.

However, if I was in your position and decided to proceed, I would be claiming everything I thought remotely due.
You can always negotiate down, but increasing te claim at a later date is well nigh impossible.

[Philomena]

It is sad to see family relationships deteriorate in circumstances like this, and unfortunately pursuing what is due could make reconciliation more difficult.

However, if I was in your position and decided to proceed, I would be claiming everything I thought remotely due.
You can always negotiate down, but increasing te claim at a later date is well nigh impossible.

thanks for your reply. my problem has been i have claimed for utility bills but have been paid for maintenance. my solicitor has said i am due for utility bills and cleaning and gardening and wrote a letter saying this. then she handed the file to a legal executive who does contentious cases who said he thought i could only claim for utility bills and he wrote and claimed this. my problem has been not knowing what to claim for, the legal executive said to bank what i had and then try to get the rest.; the solicitor said she would write another letter but then said she is leaving the company and there is no one there to deal with this and that's why i am going to write to my co-executor myself and ask him to pay me the balance, but i am just very concerned that i get paid what i am legally due under the will, and really feel that this should have been dealt with by the solicitor dealing with the house sale. as far as reconcilliation is concerned, i haven't fallen out with my co-executor but he has apologised profusely for the behaviour of his sister (which is another matter entirely)...

i simply dont know whether to instruct another solicitor and spend more money or try to deal with this myself

[des8]

IMO it is hardly worth instructing a solicitor.
Firstly it doesn't help familial relationships
Secondly it is expensive
Thirdly a letter from a solicitor has no more legal clout than a letter from you
Fourthly if you were to go as far as initiating court action it would be a waste of money employing a solicitor as you would not be able to recover his charges and the amount you would be claiming would also not cover his costs

Do it yourself!
good luck

[Philomena]

IMO it is hardly worth instructing a solicitor.
Firstly it doesn't help familial relationships
Secondly it is expensive
Thirdly a letter from a solicitor has no more legal clout than a letter from you
Fourthly if you were to go as far as initiating court action it would be a waste of money employing a solicitor as you would not be able to recover his charges and the amount you would be claiming would also not cover his costs

Do it yourself!
good luck

thank you very much for your input, it has helped enormously..,. i think all i need to know is my stepmother pays the rates taxes and keeps the property in reasonable repair and the trust fund / house sale pays for insurance and all other outgoings. do you have any idea what i can actually claim under all other outgoings.