Relative victim of fraud/investment scam/Bank acted irresponsibly

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Re: Relative victim of fraud/investment scam/Bank acted irresponsibly

Hi Rob, yes found them apologies I was looking at today's emails.

The telephone call you received, did they say exactly why they were trying to contact your Uncle? It sounds a phishing exercise and if you agree I would report it ASAP to the FCA who are also looking at the fraud case as it may also be connected, If other victims of the scan have received similar telephone calls then the FCA need to be aware.

They didn't - they kept it very vague but purporting to be able to help him with his mortgage.

I did enquire about how this person came to have my uncles number and indeed our number - he only answered the second question saying that he had been given it by my uncle.

To me what little information he had could have quite easily been established by speaking to my uncle - I just instinctively know this guy is up to no good.

What is the best way to report this to the FCA?

Would it be necessary for me to involve the police again?

We don't have any crime reference numbers or anything from years ago.

[Tools]

Re: Relative victim of fraud/investment scam/Bank acted irresponsibly

Contact the FCA directly with your concerns, may take a little bit of being passed from pillar to post but eventually you should get to the right dept.

I would keep a very close eye on your Uncle's bank transactions and speak with him more about it, try find out if he has actually agreed to anything.

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Re: Relative victim of fraud/investment scam/Bank acted irresponsibly

Hello

My dad has visited my uncle today and brought back a "General Form of Judgement or Order" which included a questionnaire which we are unsure what my uncle has done with this.

http://hmctsformfinder.justice.gov.u..._forms_id=3035

The court order states that the questionnaire should be returned before the 24th of May - obviously this date has now passed.

It also states that any defence/counterclaim will be struck out if the date is missed.

This obviously leaves us in very difficult situation - far worse than we expected.

Would you agree to contacting my dad by telephone to advise on what we can do?

I appreciate that you are very busy - but this is simply out of my control now and I just don't know what to do.

[Amethyst]

Re: Relative victim of fraud/investment scam/Bank acted irresponsibly

I'll point Tools over to your thread later (he's working late this evening)

Few bits

Who is the Court Claim from?

How much is it for ?

Could you type out the particulars of claim from the front of the form pls. and also the issue date.

To have got a directions questionnaire he must have entered a defence of some sort. The directions questionnaire is usually the next stage after defending a claim and waiting for the claimants to say whether they wish to continue.

You MIGHT be able to log in to moneyclaimonline using the claim number and password on the form, as the claim hasn't been allocated yet it may be on there and you may be able to see what has been entered.

[MissFM]

Re: Relative victim of fraud/investment scam/Bank acted irresponsibly

I've only just spotted this thread and, although I probably can't help, I just wanted to both express extreme sympathy and also to suggest that maybe the Office of the Public Guardian/Court of Protection may be able to offer useful advice even though there appears to be no LPA in your Uncle's case. There must be some legal protection from exploiters even though there may be no official instruments in place.

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Re: Relative victim of fraud/investment scam/Bank acted irresponsibly

I'll point Tools over to your thread later (he's working late this evening)

Few bits

Who is the Court Claim from?

How much is it for ?

Could you type out the particulars of claim from the front of the form pls. and also the issue date.

To have got a directions questionnaire he must have entered a defence of some sort. The directions questionnaire is usually the next stage after defending a claim and waiting for the claimants to say whether they wish to continue.

You MIGHT be able to log in to moneyclaimonline using the claim number and password on the form, as the claim hasn't been allocated yet it may be on there and you may be able to see what has been entered.

Hello

The court claim is from Lloyds Bank PLC

It does not state the amount on the piece of paperwork brought back - we haven't been able to confirm the exact figure they are claiming, as we don't have access to his finances.
However having seen a few bits of paperwork we've come to the conclusion that he was loaned around £10,000 by the bank with quite high interest. Presumably he hasn't made the payments so it will have incurred interest - not sure if the claim would be for the loan amount+interest or not.

What I have in my hands doesn't look like the claim form itself - it's a "General Form of Judgment or Order"

Given that you state that the directions questionnaire follows a input of defence it would seem that the CAB have initiated the defence process on his behalf.
We have only recently engaged with the CAB so have not had that confirmed to us - however I am wondering whether this is a copy of something given to him by the CAB.

The form is as below:

General Form of Judgment or Order

The claimaint listed as LLoyds (listed together with a 13-digit Claimaint Ref no)

Defendant listed as my uncle (with no defendant ref no)

The letter says:

"Before The Court Office sitting at the County Court Business Centre, 4th Floor St Katharine's House, 21-27 St Katharine's Street, Northampton, NN1 2LH

The Defendant, you have been sent Notice N149A, B or C which specified the date by which you were required to file the Directions Questionnaire. You have failed to file the Directions Questionnaire with the CCBC by the date specified in Form N149

IT IS ORDERED THAT

The Defendant must file the Directions Questionnaire with the CCBC on or before 7 days from service of this Order with County Court Business Centre (CCBC) via post at Katharine's House, 21-27 St Katharine's Street, Northampton, NN1 2LH, via Document Exchange at DX ****** or via e-mail at ccbcaq@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk.

If the Defendant does not comply with this notice your defence/counterclaim will automatically be struck out and, subject to the Claimant having complied with this order, the Claimant will be at liberty to enter judgment.

You can download a Directions Questionnaire from www.justice.gov.uk/forms.

For claims up to £10,000 please download form N180. For claims over £10,000 please download form N181.

This notice is served pursuant to paragraph 2(2) of the Practice Direction supplementing Part 51 of the Civil Procedure Rules. This Order had been made without a hearing. The parties have the right to apply to have the Order set aside, varied or stayed. A party making such an application must file the application with the CCBC (together with any appropriate fee) within 7 days of service of this Oder.

Dated 17 May 2014"

Not sure if that answers your question or not. Thank you again for your speedy response - I don't have access to the password or anything to look at this.

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Re: Relative victim of fraud/investment scam/Bank acted irresponsibly

I've only just spotted this thread and, although I probably can't help, I just wanted to both express extreme sympathy and also to suggest that maybe the Office of the Public Guardian/Court of Protection may be able to offer useful advice even though there appears to be no LPA in your Uncle's case. There must be some legal protection from exploiters even though there may be no official instruments in place.

Thank you - and thank you everyone - you've all been absolutely fantastic in your support.

We are so unsure what to do - for us it's a fine balance between ensuring his security and maintaining his sense of independence - so of course the LPA may feel like a loss of that but it's certainly something we're considering carefully - thank you for the advice.

[MissFM]

Re: Relative victim of fraud/investment scam/Bank acted irresponsibly

I think you need to make it clear (and others here will advise very expertly indeed in court procedure) that your Uncle was neither competent to make the agreements (ie he was cynically exploited) nor is he competent to enter into court proceedings on the above terms. This is blatant fraud upon someone who doesn't have the mental capacity to make such decisions.

[MissFM]

Re: Relative victim of fraud/investment scam/Bank acted irresponsibly

Thank you - and thank you everyone - you've all been absolutely fantastic in your support.

We are so unsure what to do - for us it's a fine balance between ensuring his security and maintaining his sense of independence - so of course the LPA may feel like a loss of that but it's certainly something we're considering carefully - thank you for the advice.

Sorry, our posts crossed.

I absolutely understand and completely empathize with your sensitivity on the above and just want to help if I can at all.

But with all your kindness and sensitivity your uncle has been preyed on and needs some legal protection from his predators, whether it's easy to get him to agree or not . xx

[Amethyst]

Re: Relative victim of fraud/investment scam/Bank acted irresponsibly

Thank you for that, it is helpful.

It sounds as though CAB did help him file a defence (rather than acted on his behalf) but when he received the directions questionnaire didn't get back to CAB to assist with filing it. It sounds like this is the court claim you mentioned at the beginning of your thread ( Soon he is due in court as he has now made his payments on this/these loan(s) and we have now put him in touch with his local CAB who are hopefully going to assist him in this matter.)

If judgment hasn't already been entered you may be able to get the questionnaire submitted - If you can contact the court and ask if judgment has been entered - not sure if they will tell you, but have a go as that's important and we might be able to rectify it by getting the questionnaire in - then we need to get a copy of the original claim form and the defence the CAB helped him enter. If Judgment has been granted in default of filing the questionnaire we can ask for a set aside, then submit the directions questionnaire and amend the defence if necessary, there would have to be a reasonable reason for the default - which sadly may have to come down to your Uncle's mental health situation as a vulnerable adult. See what the court and CAB say, and if you can't find out yourself then you may need to ask your Uncle to contact the court to ask for copies of everything to be sent. I'm guessing the CAB defence might be along similar lines of irresponsible lending, but it's just guess work until we know the exact situation.

Hello

The court claim is from Lloyds Bank PLC

It does not state the amount on the piece of paperwork brought back - we haven't been able to confirm the exact figure they are claiming, as we don't have access to his finances.
However having seen a few bits of paperwork we've come to the conclusion that he was loaned around £10,000 by the bank with quite high interest. Presumably he hasn't made the payments so it will have incurred interest - not sure if the claim would be for the loan amount+interest or not.

What I have in my hands doesn't look like the claim form itself - it's a "General Form of Judgment or Order"

Given that you state that the directions questionnaire follows a input of defence it would seem that the CAB have initiated the defence process on his behalf.
We have only recently engaged with the CAB so have not had that confirmed to us - however I am wondering whether this is a copy of something given to him by the CAB.

The form is as below:

General Form of Judgment or Order

The claimaint listed as LLoyds (listed together with a 13-digit Claimaint Ref no)

Defendant listed as my uncle (with no defendant ref no)

The letter says:

"Before The Court Office sitting at the County Court Business Centre, 4th Floor St Katharine's House, 21-27 St Katharine's Street, Northampton, NN1 2LH

The Defendant, you have been sent Notice N149A, B or C which specified the date by which you were required to file the Directions Questionnaire. You have failed to file the Directions Questionnaire with the CCBC by the date specified in Form N149

IT IS ORDERED THAT

The Defendant must file the Directions Questionnaire with the CCBC on or before 7 days from service of this Order with County Court Business Centre (CCBC) via post at Katharine's House, 21-27 St Katharine's Street, Northampton, NN1 2LH, via Document Exchange at DX ****** or via e-mail at ccbcaq@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk.

If the Defendant does not comply with this notice your defence/counterclaim will automatically be struck out and, subject to the Claimant having complied with this order, the Claimant will be at liberty to enter judgment.

You can download a Directions Questionnaire from www.justice.gov.uk/forms.

For claims up to £10,000 please download form N180. For claims over £10,000 please download form N181.

This notice is served pursuant to paragraph 2(2) of the Practice Direction supplementing Part 51 of the Civil Procedure Rules. This Order had been made without a hearing. The parties have the right to apply to have the Order set aside, varied or stayed. A party making such an application must file the application with the CCBC (together with any appropriate fee) within 7 days of service of this Oder.

Dated 17 May 2014"

Not sure if that answers your question or not. Thank you again for your speedy response - I don't have access to the password or anything to look at this.

[MissFM]

Re: Relative victim of fraud/investment scam/Bank acted irresponsibly

Ame - I think it's more a mental/learning disability than a "mental health" issue. Someone "mentally ill" may still have the intellectual capacity to understand these kind of arrangements but someone with a learning disability that impairs their intellect is unlikely to do so.

I'm sure the distinction must have some legal impact for the OP's Uncle?

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Re: Relative victim of fraud/investment scam/Bank acted irresponsibly

No worries - I've been discussing things with my dad - it's helpful that you're being so understanding

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Re: Relative victim of fraud/investment scam/Bank acted irresponsibly

Thank you for that, it is helpful.

It sounds as though CAB did help him file a defence (rather than acted on his behalf) but when he received the directions questionnaire didn't get back to CAB to assist with filing it. It sounds like this is the court claim you mentioned at the beginning of your thread ( Soon he is due in court as he has now made his payments on this/these loan(s) and we have now put him in touch with his local CAB who are hopefully going to assist him in this matter.)

If judgment hasn't already been entered you may be able to get the questionnaire submitted - If you can contact the court and ask if judgment has been entered - not sure if they will tell you, but have a go as that's important and we might be able to rectify it by getting the questionnaire in - then we need to get a copy of the original claim form and the defence the CAB helped him enter. If Judgment has been granted in default of filing the questionnaire we can ask for a set aside, then submit the directions questionnaire and amend the defence if necessary, there would have to be a reasonable reason for the default - which sadly may have to come down to your Uncle's mental health situation as a vulnerable adult. See what the court and CAB say, and if you can't find out yourself then you may need to ask your Uncle to contact the court to ask for copies of everything to be sent. I'm guessing the CAB defence might be along similar lines of irresponsible lending, but it's just guess work until we know the exact situation.

Thank you - this has helped make sense of the process that's going on.

I agree with everything you've said apart from I would agree with MissFM's conclusion that it comes down more to mental capacity is more fitting with him- despite all this as long as he can get to his favourite teams football matches he is happy!

What would this defence mean for him, i.e. what steps would need to be taken to support this defence?

I've seen an e-mail from the CAB to my dad - there is no mention of this in the defence. We did take a lot of time persuading him to go to the CAB, so I presume they thought he was mentally capable, but it take a lot of persuasion on my dads part to get to that point.

I think that although the CAB are of course assisting, they haven't got a clear enough view of the situation to take that approach.

The e-mail we've received is to the effect that they've heard from the solicitors (I don't know who they are) dealing with this case, haven't been informed of a date for the hearing, but they think "it could be a couple of months away at least"

The next part is almost directly quoted:

If he decides to sell (or go for equity release) and raise enough money to pay off the debt before the hearing, then this will close the matter. On the other hand if there is a delay in raising the funds they will seek a deferment of the case.

No mention of irresponsible lending! Bit of a surprise.

My dad is just e-mailing the CAB now to get a picture of what defence is being entered (if any - it would seem like it's been referred to a third-party solicitor of some sort)

As I say I simply don't think they've taken his vulnerability or situation in account for whatever reason.

[Amethyst]

Re: Relative victim of fraud/investment scam/Bank acted irresponsibly

If he decides to sell (or go for equity release) and raise enough money to pay off the debt before the hearing, then this will close the matter. On the other hand if there is a delay in raising the funds they will seek a deferment of the case.

That sounds concerning. a) the roll over attitude ''well he best sell his house to pay for it'' and b) From the paperwork you guys have picked up from your Uncle's there isn't a hearing date coming, as it's in default of the directions questionnaire and awaiting the claimants entering judgment...

[Amethyst]

Re: Relative victim of fraud/investment scam/Bank acted irresponsibly

Ame - I think it's more a mental/learning disability than a "mental health" issue. Someone "mentally ill" may still have the intellectual capacity to understand these kind of arrangements but someone with a learning disability that impairs their intellect is unlikely to do so.

I'm sure the distinction must have some legal impact for the OP's Uncle?

Sorry, I haven't read the entire thread just picked up on what Tools has mentioned which has been more on the fraud side of things. Yes I think it should definately be involved in the defence but as you mentioned previously there's not currently any legal standing of his 'disability' - would it be obvious to, say, a bank manager, while he was taking out this loan ?

Also Tools mentioned there may be some signs the loan was taken out to pay the fraudsters for 'investment' products ? I think we need to get a bit more detail on exactly how the loan was taken out - in branch? accompanied ? by telephone / online ?

He'd been into the bank to make transfers out of large sums of money although most likely each one underneath any flagging up limits (I think this is generally £10k).

Are the bank aware of any vulnerabilities / learning disabilities of your Uncle ?

Sorry if these sound like impersonal questions, I don't mean to be, just trying to get together a fuller picture. If there was no reasonable reason Lloyds could have suspected vulnerability it is likely they wouldn't fall under irresponsible lending etc - if we know general income and outgoings then did these transactions flag up as unusual to them at all ? and shoud anything have been done at that point.

The police were involved but the investment ''companies'' are still under investigation ? and that was after the £10k loan was taken out ?