BMW Financial Services - Voluntary Termination/Excess Mileage

[Debt Camel]

Re: BMW Financial Services - Voluntary Termination/Excess Mileage

I'll happily blank BMW and anyone else it's my credit file I need resolved and given I now live in Australia they cannot chase me for payment, well, they can try but have no jurisdiction for any 'actual' debt to which I agree and owe so an invoice will not be enforceable.

I don't know what you mean by "no jurisdiction"... BMW are entitled to sue in an English court even if you have emigrated. It is also possible (I can't say how likely) that they could find out about your rental properties and get a charge over one of them.

[Dehaw]

Re: BMW Financial Services - Voluntary Termination/Excess Mileage

In terms of jurisdiction I mean I now live in Australia, even if they wanted to take me to court they would need to server the court proceedings, which is unlikely given the cost and distance, also Scottish Law is different from English law so that would need to be considered. If they wanted to get a debt collector to chase the debt, assuming there is a debt, then they could do that but again in order for it to be enforceable in Australia, they would need to get a court order, again very unlikely.

That being said, I doubt it would ever get to that point as it would set a precedent and I doubt they would want a negative outcome on their part as it may mean refunds, In fact, BMWFS Australia was recently taken to court by ASIC and found to be giving out loans where people couldn't afford them, so BMW isn't as 'responsible' as they'd lie to think, certainly in their responses to me they've always mentioned 'as a responsible lender', really?

https://www.moneysmart.gov.au/tools-...e-compensation

I do agree about trying to get hold over one f the properties however it would need to go to court, they would need to serve the papers and really is it worth it? If it was, why haven' the done so by now? I think we know.

[Debt Camel]

Re: BMW Financial Services - Voluntary Termination/Excess Mileage

I can't comment on Scottish legal processes. I don't know if there is a need to serve the papers in person - there certainly isn't in English County Court.

If it was, why haven' the done so by now?

Because you only VTd the car in September! However rock solid their case (and I am not commenting here on how good their case is, just saying that you can't rely on nothing happening because you are now in Australia.) there is no way any court proceeding would have been started by now.

In fact, BMWFS Australia was recently taken to court by ASIC

Completely irrelevant to your situation. Nothing that a different legal entity does in a different country affects what may happen to your case.

[Dehaw]

Re: BMW Financial Services - Voluntary Termination/Excess Mileage

I realise the matter in Australia is irrelevant, I was merely pointing out that their practices aren't as 'responsible' as BMW would like you to believe, it was interesting to find this out but with most car sales businesses and it's not limited to BMW they do whatever they can to get you to buy a car.

I've had four cars from BMW and all of them were set at 25K miles so probably paid more than most and given my relationship with the franchise I 'assumed' they would have set it at that because again I 'assumed' that they already knew but looking back and paying £536 per month for the car there's no way I would have paid more which is why the mileage was set at 8K, there is no way I would have agreed to that but I clearly must have signed the papers, which I am now waiting on reviewing after they send the password for the zip fie.

The point is though is what the law says not what I believe it says and the practices of BMW in their attempt to bully you into paying the invoice, which they set and then making life a living hell as your credit file is updated by missed payments and so on even when the payments are being disputed.

The Scottish law is indeed different from English law, although there is now a simple process for court proceedings http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/taking-...mple-procedure, of course, I live I Australia and no one has my address so nothing can be served so how can I respond if I do not know about the court papers as I doubt they would be emailed, furthermore, if I did respond how could they possibly enforce anything, they can't unless they seized oir properties but I doubt they can do that for an unsecured loan, which is not what this relates to as it's an invoice not relating to a credit agreemnet.

A credit file in the UK has no bearing whatsoever in Australia, so if you rack up a lot of debt you can indeed simply emigrate, in fact, you can declare yourself bankrupt in the UK while living in another country but will have no effect on your credit in Australia or other countries. When we arrived in Australia we couldn't even get a mobile phone as we had no credit file in Australia.

I'll certainly keep you updated on developments and we will see how things proceed,I'll certainly not be bullied into paying anything, which I am disputing.

[Debt Camel]

Re: BMW Financial Services - Voluntary Termination/Excess Mileage

I've had four cars from BMW and all of them were set at 25K miles so probably paid more than most and given my relationship with the franchise I 'assumed' they would have set it at that because again I 'assumed' that they already knew but looking back and paying £536 per month for the car there's no way I would have paid more which is why the mileage was set at 8K, there is no way I would have agreed to that but I clearly must have signed the papers, which I am now waiting on reviewing after they send the password for the zip fie.

So you are saying you had four cars with a max mileage of 25k? And you didn't realise this one was set at 8k when you signed it?

That is a VERY strong point in your favour. Do you have all the paperwork for the other cars? If you don't, and it isn't in the zipped file they have sent you, I suggest paying £10 for a Subject Access Request is a good idea.

In this situation I would suggest you put in a formal written complaint to BMW saying that there was an error in drafting your agreement, that the 8k was never brought to your attention and that you would not have signed the agreement if it had been as you habitually do more mileage than that and the BMW franchise were well aware of this. If they reject this, I absolutely would take this to the ombudsman - this is NOT a normal excess mileage claim.

[Dehaw]

Re: BMW Financial Services - Voluntary Termination/Excess Mileage

So you are saying you had four cars with a max mileage of 25k? And you didn't realise this one was set at 8k when you signed it?

Yes, myself and my wife car share and she was using the car to travel all over Scotland with her work so we know better than to say 8K was enough milage but I do remember going through the costs and our monthly payment jumped from £329 to £536 and I told him point blank that I wasn't going any higher as I thought that was expensive as it was; in hindsight I should've been more vigilant when going through the paperwork but you know what it's like in there with the salesman trying to butter you up sitting for hours, you just want out.

That is a VERY strong point in your favour. Do you have all the paperwork for the other cars? If you don't, and it isn't in the zipped file they have sent you, I suggest paying £10 for a Subject Access Request is a good idea.

They've not yet responded but will definitely do this if required. The zip file is supposed to hold all information for all agreements over the past 8 years so everything should be there

In this situation I would suggest you put in a formal written complaint to BMW saying that there was an error in drafting your agreement, that the 8k was never brought to your attention and that you would not have signed the agreement if it had been as you habitually do more mileage than that and the BMW franchise were well aware of this. If they reject this, I absolutely would take this to the ombudsman - this is NOT a normal excess mileage claim.

This is exactly how it played out and I'll get onto this right now, thanks for getting back to me I truly appreciate it!

[Dehaw]

Re: BMW Financial Services - Voluntary Termination/Excess Mileage

I had to contact BMWFS to ask for this password so that I can access the files and thought I'd ask confirmation of:

- The date I VT'd the car
- The date the invoices were raised
- Why my credit file still shows the agreement open with a balance of £4400

Here was their response:

With regards to the Voluntary Termination documents, these were received and loaded on the 04/09/2017. Your excess mileage and damage invoices were sent to you on 19/09/17 and dated 26/09/17 (to allow you time to receive the invoices in the post).

Invoices need to be paid within 28 days of the invoice date before any non-payment would be reported to the credit reference agencies, which we are obliged to do under the rules of the FCA.

As advised previously, we have correctly reported the outstanding balances for excess mileage and damage (which had accrued up to the point of termination) to the credit reference agencies, therefore you next step will be to contact the Financial Ombudsman Service if you disagree with our stance. I must advise you though that we are yet to be contacted by the FOS surrounding your complaint?

I went back and confirmed that the agreement in question was terminated and that this should be reflected in my credit file and set as satisfied, not simply a reduction of the cost of the agreement with the invoices being added to the agreement which was clearly terminated.

You may also note that they are now referring to the invoices as invoices, which of course is what they are, what they aren't is a credit agreement so should not be getting reported on my credit file.

I have advised that if my credit file is not correctly reported with immediate effect that I would be making a complaint to the ICO.

I have yet to hear back from them, in the meantime though I'm still being chased by 'Debt Managers' to whom I have had no contact and will ignore.

As soon as I get the documents I'll first make a complaint to BMW, then the FO and then the ICO, after that I suppose it would be court proceedings if no suitable agreement has been met, however, I do believe their practices are not in line with the CCA or indeed the ICO.


Any thoughts on this so far?

[stuckcluckets]

Re: BMW Financial Services - Voluntary Termination/Excess Mileage

I had to contact BMWFS to ask for this password so that I can access the files and thought I'd ask confirmation of:

- The date I VT'd the car
- The date the invoices were raised
- Why my credit file still shows the agreement open with a balance of £4400

Here was their response:



I went back and confirmed that the agreement in question was terminated and that this should be reflected in my credit file and set as satisfied, not simply a reduction of the cost of the agreement with the invoices being added to the agreement which was clearly terminated.

You may also note that they are now referring to the invoices as invoices, which of course is what they are, what they aren't is a credit agreement so should not be getting reported on my credit file.

I have advised that if my credit file is not correctly reported with immediate effect that I would be making a complaint to the ICO.

I have yet to hear back from them, in the meantime though I'm still being chased by 'Debt Managers' to whom I have had no contact and will ignore.

As soon as I get the documents I'll first make a complaint to BMW, then the FO and then the ICO, after that I suppose it would be court proceedings if no suitable agreement has been met, however, I do believe their practices are not in line with the CCA or indeed the ICO.


Any thoughts on this so far?

I have been reading through/following your posts Dehaw, I just haven't responded as the jurisdiction in Australia vs. UK doesn't apply to myself, and so I can't really be of any assistance/advice there.

In response to your last post, I find it interesting that BMW Financial Services are referring to the alleged charges as "invoices". They have been EXTREMELY careful in how they've worded each and every piece of correspondence with me, and certainly made sure not to mention the word 'invoice'.

I wouldn't expect to receive a response from BMW Financial Services. At best, they'll probably just inform you that "all future correspondence may be read but will not be responded to". I don't hear a thing from BMW Financial Services anymore, and they ignore any contact from me. I guess they'd just had enough of hearing how immoral their behaviour is - some people really struggle with being told they're wrong.

I wouldn't bother with the Financial Ombudsman. It's a whole lot of hassle for a pointless and irrelevant result. Frankly, they're utterly useless - they apparently only make judgements based on what they personally believe to be "fair and reasonable", and do not take the law into consideration. They're supposedly a public service designed to benefit/protect the consumer, but by ignoring the law, I feel they do the complete opposite.

As an update from my side, I spoke with my case officer at the ICO yesterday regarding the last email I'd sent them (quoted in an earlier post above), as I had not heard back. They verbally confirmed their previous error regarding the 2016 SCOR Guidance, and asked for a newer copy of my Experian credit file that illustrates how BMW Financial Services are still continuining to submit missed payment entries to CRAs. They said they'd aim to come back to me today with an updated assessment. I received the below email from them shortly after:

Further to our recent telephone conversations and your email on the subject of the 2016 SCOR guidance.

I sincerely apologise for misinforming you about the situation regarding defaults and charges. Having read through the section you highlight, I see your point about cases that are solely made up of fees or charges. As you point out, the guidance says at page 7:

A default should not be filed:

• If the amount outstanding is solely made up of fees or charges

Pleaseleavethiswith me while I review the matter in detail. I will come back to you as soon as I can.

I'll update the thread with their new assessment as soon as I receive it.

[Dehaw]

Re: BMW Financial Services - Voluntary Termination/Excess Mileage

Yes the invoices thing was a big revelation for me to find out yesterday but I have been probing a girl called Lucy since September so simply reply to her now, I have tried contacting their customer service people for this password but have never had a reply from them, Lucy, on the other hand, has been responding and our emails are becoming more personal, which is maybe why she let her guard down regards these invoices.

Their argument is the damage and mileage accrued over the past 3 years and is based solely on their assumption that because the car has higher than agreed mileage that they would get less for the car when sold, of course, they have no intention of trying to get what they can for the car as it goes to auction, just because it has higher mileage doesn't mean that the car is in a poorer condition when I've been spending literally thousands per annum via the franchise.

I read somewhere else that if they sold the car for more than the outstanding amount that they should return the remainder since the agreement was for a specific cost.

I went back with another email last night asking for the results of the car sale along with other information relating to the agreement being cancelled and that the invoices are a different issue so they should update my credit file according to the ICO or I would submit a complaint to them.

I've not yet heard back from her but if and when I do I'll certainly update the post.

Keep me posted on the ICO as I will be doing the same thing, at the moment they have not submitted a missed payment as it shows it's up to date and that's 3months that's passed.

ADDITION: I've literally just checked my mail and here was their response:

Just to clarify, although agreement 2013322 was voluntary terminated and the invoices raised for excess mileage and damage were for this terminated agreement, the excess mileage and damage was accrued/occurred up until the point of termination. We are therefore able to invoice for these under the rules of the Consumer Credit Act. We have correctly reported any unpaid balance on this agreement to the Credit Reference Agencies. As our stance on this isn’t going to change, I would advise you to contact either the BVRLA or the Financial Ombudsman Service who will be able to investigate further on your behalf.

With regards to the mileage allowance given to you by the supplying retailer, if you feel that you were mis-sold your agreement due to the mileage allowance given, you will need to contact the supplying retailer directly and make a formal complaint. If you feel that they aren’t dealing with your complaint/responding to you, then please contact our Customer Escalations Team here at BMW FS and they can liaise with the retailer:- csescalations@bmwfin.com

Lastly, your vehicle sold at Auction for £11,750 + VAT

The car finance was sitting at 19K at point of termination.

[kreig]

Re: BMW Financial Services - Voluntary Termination/Excess Mileage

+1 with a similar issue.

Not sure how I didn't come across this thread when searching before, but some really great info on here. Rob and Camel have been helping me on my own thread.

Following keenly, as just opened a case with the FO over the same issue. The amount I allegedly owe for excess mileage is tiny but the default on my credit rating is the issue.

[stuckcluckets]

Re: BMW Financial Services - Voluntary Termination/Excess Mileage

So I had a call from my case officer at the ICO this afternoon. We were on the phone for quite some time. Long and short of it is this - I quote their words "I appreciate what the guidance says, however, we can't see any default notices on your credit file, so it appears that BMW Financial Services are acting correctly".
What they mean to say is that, at the moment, the missed/late payment entries that BMW Financial Services are continuing to submit to my credit file have not yet reached the point where they equate to an official 'default' status. I believe that in order for this to be the case, there must be 8 missed payments. This is according to the CAIS coding system, whereby each missed payment is given a code of 1 through to 8 consecutively. Once you reach 8, a default is applied. Interestingly, none of the missed/late payment entries that BMW Financial Services have submitted carry the appropriate CAIS code (they all have a code of 0 showing).

I explained the situation to my case officer in more detail, and gave them more information on the background to the complaint I've raised (not that they should need this, as I provided them with a wealth of information to begin with). It turned out that their understanding of the law surrounding Voluntary Termination was limited, and this is why they were struggling to understand the situation. I explained to them that, even if BMW Financial Services were able to prove (in court) that the alleged sum is truly owed, this would need to be submitted to my credit file as a separate debt/account - I explained how this alleged charge cannot be a part of the original credit account on my credit file as this has been terminated. I explained that BMW Financial Services are unlikely to ever attempt to issue a full default notice (hence the odd CAIS code situation mentioned above), as they know full well they have no legal right to. I then went on to question the legality (in terms of the Data Protection Act) of BMW Financial Services continually adding a missed/late payment notice for each and every month since my Voluntary Termination without ever issuing a full default notice - surely this is a breach of the Data Protection Act, in that it is hugely damaging to me as a person.

By the end of our conversation, they seemed to be understanding the situation a little better. They asked if I could send them some information surrounding our rights when it comes to Voluntary Termination, so that they can familiarise themselves with the situation a little more before reassessing. I've sent an email with exactly that contained.

I can't believe how difficult the ICO are being here, nor can I believe that they don't understand the law surrounding Voluntary Termination. It's just crazy. I will update as soon as I hear any more from them.

+1 with a similar issue.

Not sure how I didn't come across this thread when searching before, but some really great info on here. Rob and Camel have been helping me on my own thread.

Following keenly, as just opened a case with the FO over the same issue. The amount I allegedly owe for excess mileage is tiny but the default on my credit rating is the issue.

Can I ask, is there an actual default notice on your credit file, or are BMW Financial Services just issuing missed/late payment entries as they are in my case?

[kreig]

Re: BMW Financial Services - Voluntary Termination/Excess Mileage

So I had a call from my case officer at the ICO this afternoon. We were on the phone for quite some time. Long and short of it is this - I quote their words "I appreciate what the guidance says, however, we can't see any default notices on your credit file, so it appears that BMW Financial Services are acting correctly".
What they mean to say is that, at the moment, the missed/late payment entries that BMW Financial Services are continuing to submit to my credit file have not yet reached the point where they equate to an official 'default' status. I believe that in order for this to be the case, there must be 8 missed payments. This is according to the CAIS coding system, whereby each missed payment is given a code of 1 through to 8 consecutively. Once you reach 8, a default is applied. Interestingly, none of the missed/late payment entries that BMW Financial Services have submitted carry the appropriate CAIS code (they all have a code of 0 showing).

I explained the situation to my case officer in more detail, and gave them more information on the background to the complaint I've raised (not that they should need this, as I provided them with a wealth of information to begin with). It turned out that their understanding of the law surrounding Voluntary Termination was limited, and this is why they were struggling to understand the situation. I explained to them that, even if BMW Financial Services were able to prove (in court) that the alleged sum is truly owed, this would need to be submitted to my credit file as a separate debt/account - I explained how this alleged charge cannot be a part of the original credit account on my credit file as this has been terminated. I explained that BMW Financial Services are unlikely to ever attempt to issue a full default notice (hence the odd CAIS code situation mentioned above), as they know full well they have no legal right to. I then went on to question the legality (in terms of the Data Protection Act) of BMW Financial Services continually adding a missed/late payment notice for each and every month since my Voluntary Termination without ever issuing a full default notice - surely this is a breach of the Data Protection Act, in that it is hugely damaging to me as a person.

By the end of our conversation, they seemed to be understanding the situation a little better. They asked if I could send them some information surrounding our rights when it comes to Voluntary Termination, so that they can familiarise themselves with the situation a little more before reassessing. I've sent an email with exactly that contained.

I can't believe how difficult the ICO are being here, nor can I believe that they don't understand the law surrounding Voluntary Termination. It's just crazy. I will update as soon as I hear any more from them.



Can I ask, is there an actual default notice on your credit file, or are BMW Financial Services just issuing missed/late payment entries as they are in my case?

Amazing work, just goes to show how grey this whole situation is and how underhand what BMW are doing.

I hope that once you win this fight they keep a clear record for the rest of us to quote

EDIT: Missed your last bit. Its just missed payments too, I have well over 8 though (Think I am at 12 or so). Entry code is C1.

Im quite happy to PM you a screengrab if that helps you.

[stuckcluckets]

Re: BMW Financial Services - Voluntary Termination/Excess Mileage

Amazing work, just goes to show how grey this whole situation is and how underhand what BMW are doing.

I hope that once you win this fight they keep a clear record for the rest of us to quote

Thank you, I appreciate the support. I will be sure to submit any rulings anonymously for others to use in their own disputes.

As per my previous post, I have a question - is there an actual default notice on your credit file, or are BMW Financial Services just issuing missed/late payment entries as they are in my case?

[kreig]

Re: BMW Financial Services - Voluntary Termination/Excess Mileage

Thank you, I appreciate the support. I will be sure to submit any rulings anonymously for others to use in their own disputes.

As per my previous post, I have a question - is there an actual default notice on your credit file, or are BMW Financial Services just issuing missed/late payment entries as they are in my case?

Hi I did edit the last post, as I missed the question first time around.

They are down as missed payments I have well over 8 though (Think I am at 12 or so). Entry code is C1. According to Experian I don't have any defaulted accounts.

Im quite happy to PM you a screengrab if that helps you.

[stuckcluckets]

Re: BMW Financial Services - Voluntary Termination/Excess Mileage

Hi I did edit the last post, as I missed the question first time around.

They are down as missed payments I have well over 8 though (Think I am at 12 or so). Entry code is C1. According to Experian I don't have any defaulted accounts.

Im quite happy to PM you a screengrab if that helps you.

A screen grab would be helpful, thank you.

Interesting, sounds as though it’s showing exactly as mine is. My latest missed/late payment entry takes the total up to 4, and this is the first showing as a “C1” entry.

Edit - just looked this up C1 means “Active Account”. C2 means “Closed Account” and C3 means “Account in Default”