Car Problems

[Mr_Brightside]

I bought a car a week ago from a private seller and have only detected a serious problem with the cooling system. The coolant reservoir drains every time I drive the car. It looks like there is a leak in the pipes. If a car running low on coolant there is a danger of engine failure!

I bought this after seeing it on an Ebay Classified. Prior to purchase the seller told me in an e-mail the car had 'no underlying problems.' On the day of the purchase I took the car for a runaround and everything seemed OK I had a quick look under the bonnet and remarked to the seller that there was a fair amount of oil on the engine. He replied that he had not even looked under the bonnet and that the car was part exchange and he was just selling it on.

Well, there's no fool like an old fool and as the car seemed to run fine and I bought it cash.

It has taken a number of days for me to work out there is a problem with the cooling system. Obviously if I had known of it I would have not bought the car. It would not have been obvious that there was a problem with the coolant system when taking the car out on a drive. Firstly any escape of coolant from pipes/seals etc would only occur after the car had warmed up properly and then would only be visible if the bonnet were up.

I have sent an e-mail to the seller asking for a full refund and this was his reply

"Sorry to hear of your problems with the car. As you are aware this was a px vehicle and was sold to you as such at trade in value. You were free to make any inspection you wanted before committing to buying the vehicle. In fact you took the vehicle out for about a 15 minute run and I also told you I had never lifted the bonnet on this particular vehicle. No warranty was given or implied in the slightest and this would not be possible at the price you paid. There are no legal obligations that affect this matter I'm afraid. These problems have surfaced during your ownership and whilst unfortunate there is nothing I can do."

Any observations regarding the legal dimensions of all this would be gratefully received. Any observations regarding my stupidity not necessary:tinysmile_cry_t:


Oh and the entry on Ebay read

This is a PX veichle and will be a genuine bargain for somebody. It has MOT till Jan and Taxed untill Dec.
It starts runs and drives as it should, infact we have covered over 100 miles in it since taking it in PX.
It benefits from
Power Steering
Remote locking
Electric windows
2x Electric sunroofs
Picnic tables in rear


Everything works.


Bad points
(all cars have them especially when 15 years old)
Various marks around the car
Wear on drivers seat
Front tyre is slightly scrubbed off on outside edges but still perfectly legal


This is a great spacious family car.
Ready to drive away today


Please do not hesitate to contact me with any questions

[bluebottle]

Re: Car Problems

Right. First and foremost, is this toerag a dealer masquerading as a private seller? If so, he's breaking the law and will find Trading Standards paying him a visit to insert the toe of their boots up his backside to the top lacehole. And that's before they decide whether to haul him in front of a court or not. Secondly, it is an offence, under the Motor Vehicle (Construction & Use) Regulations, to sell a vehicle in a dangerous and/or defective condition. Offences under this statutory instrument are absolute, that is, there is no defence or excuse.

I would suggest you speak, firstly, to your local Trading Standards Department and, secondly, to VOSA. The vehicle may need examining to determine its roadworthiness.

[Mr_Brightside]

Re: Car Problems

Many thanks for the speedy response bluebottle.

Have to say the status of this individual is rather opaque. When I bought the car it seemed he was working on a number of cars. He had a garage/workshop and lived in an adjoining house. I do not remember whether there was a sign saying this was a business. I now recall as I arrived he was on the phone to someone and told them he had to call off as I had arrived. It was clear from the way he spoke that the other person knew he was selling that particular car and that I was expected.

It seems he and his wife run the ebay account and I have been in communication with both of them before and after sale. A trading name appears on the Ebay Classified. I have their address but not their surname.

Oh lordy....I have just looked at the parts of the V5C he gave me. Section 9 (selling or transferring your vehicle to a motor trader, Insurer or dismantler) has been signed by someone on the 11/8. So the guy that sold the car to me was never registered as the keeper then? I have not received my full V5C yet, so cannot see details of previous keeper.

Anyway I cannot accept what he has written in his reply of today. He needs to know I am willing to pursue this but I'm not sure which particular bit of law I should be alerting him to. Is it just Motor Vehicle (Construction & Use) Regulations or can I also direct him to Sale of Goods Act?

[bluebottle]

Re: Car Problems

If he is carrying on in trade as a motor dealer and repairer, he is subject to Consumer Protection Law, which includes a statutory instrument requiring anyone who carries on a trade to disclose this in any advertisement. They must not give the impression they are a private individual in order to skirt round the requirements of Consumer Protection Law. I would, if I were you, contact Trading Standards first thing tomorrow morning, followed by VOSA, but please let TS know you are going to contact VOSA and vice versa, as they can then co-ordinate any investigation and share intelligence. At this stage, I would be guided by TS and VOSA and communicate with them only, unless directed otherwise.

[Mr_Brightside]

Re: Car Problems

Will keep my communications limited to them for the time being. Thanks once more.

[bluebottle]

Re: Car Problems

You're welcome.

[Galahad]

Re: Car Problems

Further to that, check his username on ebay and see if he has sold other cars or is currently selling other cars.

I can't remember the restriction, I think its four cars a year and you're not considered as a motor trader, in excess of that, and theres no way of making excuses you're not a trader.

[teaboy2]

Re: Car Problems

Sales of goods act 1979 also applies here too, which does grant you a warranty under the contract of sale in regards to defects.

12 Implied terms about title, etc.

(1)In a contract of sale, other than one to which subsection (3) below applies, there is an implied [F7term] on the part of the seller that in the case of a sale he has a right to sell the goods, and in the case of an agreement to sell he will have such a right at the time when the property is to pass.
(2)In a contract of sale, other than one to which subsection (3) below applies, there is also an implied [F7term] that—

(a)the goods are free, and will remain free until the time when the property is to pass, from any charge or encumbrance not disclosed or known to the buyer before the contract is made, and
(b)the buyer will enjoy quiet possession of the goods except so far as it may be disturbed by the owner or other person entitled to the benefit of any charge or encumbrance so disclosed or known.
(3)This subsection applies to a contract of sale in the case of which there appears from the contract or is to be inferred from its circumstances an intention that the seller should transfer only such title as he or a third person may have.

(4)In a contract to which subsection (3) above applies there is an implied [F7term] that all charges or encumbrances known to the seller and not known to the buyer have been disclosed to the buyer before the contract is made.
(5)In a contract to which subsection (3) above applies there is also an implied [F7term] that none of the following will disturb the buyer’s quiet possession of the goods, namely—
(a)the seller;
(b)in a case where the parties to the contract intend that the seller should transfer only such title as a third person may have, that person;
(c)anyone claiming through or under the seller or that third person otherwise than under a charge or encumbrance disclosed or known to the buyer before the contract is made.
[F8(5A)As regards England and Wales and Northern Ireland, the term implied by subsection (1) above is a condition and the terms implied by subsections (2), (4) and (5) above are warranties.]

(6)Paragraph 3 of Schedule 1 below applies in relation to a contract made before 18 May 1973.

14 Implied terms about quality or fitness.

(1)Except as provided by this section and section 15 below and subject to any other enactment, there is no implied [F11term] about the quality or fitness for any particular purpose of goods supplied under a contract of sale.
[F12(2)Where the seller sells goods in the course of a business, there is an implied term that the goods supplied under the contract are of satisfactory quality.

(2A)For the purposes of this Act, goods are of satisfactory quality if they meet the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking account of any description of the goods, the price (if relevant) and all the other relevant circumstances.
(2B)For the purposes of this Act, the quality of goods includes their state and condition and the following (among others) are in appropriate cases aspects of the quality of goods—
(a)fitness for all the purposes for which goods of the kind in question are commonly supplied,
(b)appearance and finish,
(c)freedom from minor defects,
(d)safety, and

(e)durability.
(2C)The term implied by subsection (2) above does not extend to any matter making the quality of goods unsatisfactory—
(a)which is specifically drawn to the buyer’s attention before the contract is made,
(b)where the buyer examines the goods before the contract is made, which that examination ought to reveal, or
(c)in the case of a contract for sale by sample, which would have been apparent on a reasonable examination of the sample.]

Note a coolant leak is not likely to be spotted by untrained eyes or by a reasonable person. Only time an untrained or reasonable person will notice a coolant leak will be when the coolant level is to low. It is therefore likely the seller knew about the leak and topped up the coolant, which would explain why it was not noticed during the 15min test drive. Oh and for a dealer to say they have not checked under the hood is load of ****e as they are required to do so to ensure the car is free for defects by law. I used to work in the motor trade myself for one of the northeast biggest car parts, and fitting firms.

[Mr_Brightside]

Re: Car Problems

Thanks for that teaboy2. He hasn't got a leg to stand on, but I reckon this will be a long drawn out affair.

Immediate annoyance on phoning Trading Standards. This particular council (Tameside) outsources to Citizen's Advice Bureau, which in turn log's calls and returns report to Council. Trading Standards Officers then look at the reports and decide which one's they are going to follow up. It appears I might never know whether they are going to take this case up or not..

CAB just told me it seemed this was a trader and that I had statutory rights. They said I should send letter based on their template to address found on Ebay classified giving notice of legal action, That address is different to address I attended when purchasing vehicle. I was also told the only redress available would be through the small claims court They suggested I might hire a car or take taxis for essential journeys and then include consequential expenses too.

So all-in-all pretty frustrating stuff. Can't speak to Trading Standards direct and I was hoping they might contact the seller to push things along. That was pretty optimistic really wasn't it.

There is now an address on Ebay classified listings for this seller. It is obvious they are trading cars. They are selling two at the moment and are breaking another one. They've also sold another couple in July/August. They don't seem to be trying to hide this fact.

Regarding VOSA. I've been looking at their website and am Unsure what their role might be here. Any further info greatly appreciated.

[teaboy2]

Re: Car Problems

Since Trading Standards are not helping you (though it the seller is in a different area to you then you can try contacting his local trading standards office), then i would open a dispute about this seller with Ebay and if you paid via Paypal with paypal as well. Give them a full break down of the dispute in detail.

I would also write a letter to both the address for the seller on ebay and the address you attended detailing the sales of goods act 1979 as provided above and title the letter "Letter Before Action" giving him 14 days to respond with a satisfactory response, making it clear that further action, which may include but may not limited to legal action, will follow if he fails to respond and/or fails agrees to reimburse your cost incurred as a result of his breach of contractual warranty under the sales of goods contract entered into with yourself and to repair or pay for the repair of the damaged parts. Also make it clear that as it was a coolant leak then it will not have been noticeable if the coolant tank was full at the time of the test drive, and their is no way a trader would not do a full inspection on a vehicle to ensure it is free for defects and road worthy as they are required to so by law - Which also includes looking under the bonnet e.g. to check the oil, head gaskets etc etc.

Include a break down of all the costs you have incurred. Make it clear that in contractual law, as he is the party in breach of warranty of contract then he is in breach of contract in general too. As such the law deems him as liable to reimburse yourselve all costs you had incurred which you would not have otherwise incurred were it not for his breach of contract.

[bluebottle]

Re: Car Problems

Thanks for that teaboy2. He hasn't got a leg to stand on, but I reckon this will be a long drawn out affair.

Immediate annoyance on phoning Trading Standards. This particular council (Tameside) outsources to Citizen's Advice Bureau, which in turn log's calls and returns report to Council. Trading Standards Officers then look at the reports and decide which one's they are going to follow up. It appears I might never know whether they are going to take this case up or not..

CAB just told me it seemed this was a trader and that I had statutory rights. They said I should send letter based on their template to address found on Ebay classified giving notice of legal action, That address is different to address I attended when purchasing vehicle. I was also told the only redress available would be through the small claims court They suggested I might hire a car or take taxis for essential journeys and then include consequential expenses too.

So all-in-all pretty frustrating stuff. Can't speak to Trading Standards direct and I was hoping they might contact the seller to push things along. That was pretty optimistic really wasn't it.

There is now an address on Ebay classified listings for this seller. It is obvious they are trading cars. They are selling two at the moment and are breaking another one. They've also sold another couple in July/August. They don't seem to be trying to hide this fact.

Regarding VOSA. I've been looking at their website and am Unsure what their role might be here. Any further info greatly appreciated.

VOSA (Vehicle Operators and Services Agency) is part of the Department for Transport and incorporates the Vehicle Inspectorate, who oversee the MOT system, training and examination of MOT testers and keep garages on their toes by carrying out random checks to ensure work on vehicles is being carried out in compliance with the Motor Vehicle (Construction and Use) Regulations upon which the MOT test is based. If you have a vehicle that is potentially unroadworthy, you need to speak to the VOSA office that is local to your area and be guided by them. I do know that when my sister bought a car that started making strange noises a few days after purchase, my brother-in-law, who is an engineer, rang VOSA and they wanted to know the name of the dealer, name of the garage where the MOT was done and the ins and outs of a cat's hind quarters. VOSA is interested in anyone who sells or repairs/services motor vehicles as their role is to ensure the safety of the public is not put at risk by those who cut corners or do not comply with the law. Ring VOSA, explain what has happened and see what they say. If they want one of their engineers to examine the vehicle, they will make an appointment to do so.

[GFP]

Re: Car Problems

The office of fair trading issued new guidelines In 2010.
These address interpretation of sales of goods act (as amended).
This doesn't change the law but it gives the OFT interpretation and makes it clearer through specific examples.

Several of the items you posted are clearly contravening this. I advise you download and read the documents and then post the contraventions. They give very explicit examples.
Use these as your basis of any letters. Do everything in writing should go without saying but I know often we don't to avoid confrontation. You are likely to end up in small claims court or at least the track into it. There is a flow chart that shows what you need to follow.

The basic choice is if you reject outright or allow em the choice of refund/repair/exchange*.


Claiming to be a private seller is one example. Trying to limit their liability by disclaimers as you posted is another.


http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/rep...08/oft1241.pdf

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/rep...08/oft1242.pdf

EDITS: My interpretation is that if you wish to REJECT the car you must supply the proof of the underlying fault (this can be expensive, often greater than the price of a 2nd hand car as it usually needs to be RAC/AA etc. not a garage that may have an interest) OR you can ask them to REFUND, REPLACE, REPAIR.....

If they fail to REPAIR (within a reasonable time etc. read the docs) then you are entitled to a REFUND.

The reality is many older cars are non economic to repair and this is where used car dealers try and wriggle.
From their POV they sometimes buy 'lemons', cars that cannot be economically repaired. This is their risk as a dealer and that is the supposed advantage of buying from a dealer (franchised or not). You are the consumer, they are the professional and the risk of underlying faults falls with the dealer. This however means they will do all they can to try and mislead you as to your rights. According to the OFT less than 1% of people go to court but this is because they don't understand their rights (this is an interpretation of the results they presented after their survey).

Hence:
1) Unless you paid more than a few thousand pounds it is possibly better to ask them if they will repair, replace or refund. (This is what we were told before the whole OFT/Trading Standards/CAB switchover occurred by the Trading Standards)
2) If they don't get it repaired you have redress through the courts (and it may well be its uneconomic to repair). Make sure that they know that but in a constructive way.
3) Advice from my cousin as a solicitor: The smalls claim track should minimise costs to both parties. Hence don't do anything expensive without making sure you document it and give them a chance to rectify. This includes hiring a car etc.
4) Make sure you use the correct form in letters. (You will find that on here). By this I mean make sure the terms are correct. Write everything expecting it to be used in court. For small claims this means BE REASONABLE BUT FIRM. Express your wish to resolve this matter without legal redress. (Send at least a couple of letters registered mail). Make sure you follow up and get the signatures for receipt (or if they refuse to sign get that in writing).
5) Your aim is to look like you did everything you could by assuming the 'business' was acting professionally. The reality is many of these 'professionals' are far from professional and you know they are trying to wriggle out and mislead you however don't succumb to putting that in writing.




Sorry to hear of your problems with the car. As you are aware this was a px vehicle and was sold to you as such at trade in value.
Erm, if he's PX then he's a DEALER!
You must not falsely claim, or create the impression, that you are acting for purposes unrelated to your business or falsely represent yourself as a private seller (banned practice 22). For example, a second hand car dealer puts a used car on or near a road and displays a handwritten advertisement reading
‘One careful owner. Good family run- around. £2000 or nearest offer. Call Jack on 07734 765890.’The advertisement gives the impression that the seller is not selling as a trader, and would breach the CPRs.

You were free to make any inspection you wanted before committing to buying the vehicle.

In fact you took the vehicle out for about a 15 minute run and I also told you I had never lifted the bonnet on this particular vehicle.
xamples of breaches of professional diligence:
• Systematically failing to carry out the pre-sale checks that you would reasonably be expected to undertake in relation to the mechanical condition, history, and mileage of a vehicle before you advertise, market or sell it.
•Obstructing consumers who have bought vehicles of unsatisfactory quality from you and are trying to exercise their contractual rights to redress under the SoGA – for example if you refuse to listen to complaints or wrongly tell consumers that they have no right to redress (such as to reject the vehicle or have it repaired or replaced by you).
• Failing to deal with complaints at all or in an honest, fair, reasonable and professional manner.
Roadworthiness
5.17 You should ensure that you have procedures in place to check that vehicles you supply, offer to supply or expose for sale are safe and roadworthy. It is not sufficient to rely on MOT or service histories.This will usually mean arranging for a suitably qualified or competent person to carry out pre-sale mechanical inspections of vehicles and any problems that make them unroadworthy must be rectified.
No warranty was given or implied in the slightest and this would not be possible at the price you paid. There are no legal obligations that affect this matter I'm afraid.



These problems have surfaced during your ownership and whilst unfortunate there is nothing I can do."

These are just examples, I have had to read this for my own case..... I strongly advise you read them cover to cover several times and extract the relevant parts!

[Mr_Brightside]

Re: Car Problems

I do know that when my sister bought a car that started making strange noises a few days after purchase, my brother-in-law, who is an engineer, rang VOSA and they wanted to know the name of the dealer, name of the garage where the MOT was done and the ins and outs of a cat's hind quarters. VOSA is interested in anyone who sells or repairs/services motor vehicles as their role is to ensure the safety of the public is not put at risk by those who cut corners or do not comply with the law. Ring VOSA, explain what has happened and see what they say. If they want one of their engineers to examine the vehicle, they will make an appointment to do so.

Just an update on VOSA. Unfortunately it looks like your sister was very lucky indeed. I rang VOSA and they told me they were only responsible for (excuse my crude paraphrasing here) faults with moving vehicles and dodgy MOTs. If they pulled my car on my travels and found it to be defective they would take it off the road and I would be responsible as the owner. However, anything to do with the car dealer is all the remit of Trading Standards apparently and they said they no authority to bring sanctions against car dealers (although they had oversight of MOT centres).

Anyway it was worth a go.

[Mr_Brightside]

Re: Car Problems

The office of fair trading issued new guidelines In 2010.
These address interpretation of sales of goods act (as amended).

Many thanks for alerting me to this GFP and for all the detail in your post. I take your point about rejecting the goods and cost of vehicle inspection.

I am about to knuckle down and draft my letter to my car dealing friend. To prove how reasonable I am I feel I have to allow them the chance to offer repair. Question is - if I do offer chance of repair can I (or should I) specify conditions to this (e.g. at a car repair centre of my choosing). What I don't want is this guy saying he'll repair it and then botch it or get a mate to botch it. I do not trust him.

Not sure if 'replacement' is a good proposition as I do not fancy him offering me another vehicle really.

The other thing that plays on my mind is that in the ebay classified it says "we have covered over 100 miles in it since taking it in PX" Now if he has been driving that car around for one hundred miles with a defective coolant system then what other damage could this have caused?

Anyway I will post my draft letter on here and will greatly appreciate any feedback received.

[basa48]

Re: Car Problems

To go to another point.

Can you see where the coolant is leaking from? It could be simply a leaking hose or a joint where a hose attaches. Check it whilst the engine is a full operating temperature.

Check the engine oil filler cap. If it has a foamy deposit on it, you have a blown head gasket or cracked cylinder head, which are both major repairs (especially the latter).

It could also be simply a loose or leaking coolant filler cap.