Bought a car with outstanding finance, finance company going to repossess it

[hello405]

What I am confused about is if it falls into the small claims track, does that mean we can't also sue for our costs -- ie car hire and solicitor, and can only recover the cost of the car itself?

Without knowing this I don't know how we can decide on what route we want to take. If we can't get our solicitor fees back it doesn't seem to make sense to hire one for £2000-3000 for a £3000 car. This will also dictate what we decide to do about transportation in the meantime. My partner relies on the car for his employment.

Also it would be helpful to know how long you've had the vehicle and how much use you got out of it.

We've had it since August.

Does it make any difference to how we file this, that we bought it in Scotland? It's registered and we live in England.

[MIKE770]

bought a car and not checked if financed??? as in the past if so it has been finance companies ownership and people have been out of pocket (looser) sure nothing has changed i.e. owners of property etc?????
What is an HPI Check? | RAC Car Passport Vehicle Check | RAC

https://www.rac.co.uk/buying-a-car/rac-car-data-check/what-is-a-hpi-check

[2222]

What I am confused about is if it falls into the small claims track, does that mean we can't also sue for our costs -- ie car hire and solicitor, and can only recover the cost of the car itself?

Without knowing this I don't know how we can decide on what route we want to take. If we can't get our solicitor fees back it doesn't seem to make sense to hire one for £2000-3000 for a £3000 car. This will also dictate what we decide to do about transportation in the meantime. My partner relies on the car for his employment.



We've had it since July.

Does it make any difference to how we file this, that we bought it in Scotland? It's registered and we live in England.

Hi Hello

You need to distinguish between your claim and your costs.

Your claim would include reasonably foreseeable consequential losses arising from them taking your car away. That would include car hire (although it would be sensible to buy a replacement car).

Your costs would be the costs of the proceedings, for example any solicitor's fees. You can't get those back on the small claims track. You can claim back any court fees fees, though.

Your best bet, as it's not that complicated a case, would be to handle the case as a litigant in person, within the small claims track. That means you don't have any costs to claim back. The finance company, on the other hand, are going to need to pay someone to handle the case for them, even if that is someone in-house. Even if they win, they won't be able to get those costs back from you. So, they are on a hiding to nothing fighting the case.

The whole thing is reasonably stacked in your favour. For example, you can have the case transferred to a court local to yourself, even if this is highly inconvenient for the finance company. On the other hand, you may find the procedure quite daunting. People here can help you complete the paperwork, and hopefully the finance company will fold long before it gets to court (if they have any sense!).

The only thing that bothered me was that, if you apply for an injunction, that might expose you to costs liability if you lose. I see that CPR 27.14 says that costs can be awarded "in proceedings which included a claim for an injunction ... a sum not exceeding the amount specified in Practice Direction 27 for legal advice and assistance relating to that claim". The practice direction specifies "up to £260", though, so not too deadly. To be frank, it's a bit late to apply for an injunction anyway now.

[R0b]

Regarding 2222's point about injunction, I don't think it is too late to apply but it will cost you some money, more than what it would to simply issue a claim on it's own. So if your partner can get to work by other means (and I think purchasing a cheap car is not unreasonable in this situation) then go you can bypass the injunction and simply make a money claim.

Dont have more to add than what's already been said other than the amount of fees you pay depends on how much is being claimed. You have to pay an initial fee for issuing the claim and then if it proceeds to trial, you will need to pay a further fee for the hearing.

I would suggest you take a look at the Court Fees to get an idea of what your likely to pay. Again these should be recoverable le if you win your claim.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...main-fees-ex50

[hello405]

Thanks very much for the help and suggestions. I just want to make sure I understand this correctly.

It sounds like if we file in the small claims track, our best course of action is buy a replacement car and file a claim for the cost of the replacement car and the costs of filing.

A few more questions:

1. Do we need to purchase the replacement car before we file? Or can our claim just be for a reasonable replacement cost?

2. Is it reasonable to replace the car with something slightly more expensive? We bought the car in Scotland because it's cheaper there but will have to buy the replacement in London, where it will be more expensive.

3. So is what we will be claiming entirely for the replacement cost and not for the car they took from us?

4. How much involvement will the guy who sold us thecar need to have? We have a written statement from him, but there is no chance he will come to London to go to court for us.

5. Regarding the guy who sold us the car, if we lose the case with Moneybarn, we can still go after him, right? Or should we just do that from the outset? I'd rather not but...

6. Regarding the injunction, I don't understand this part at all. I thought this had to be done *before* they took the car?

[2222]

The injunction needs to be before they sell it on. I got confused about which day of the week it is, when I said it's a bit late. I just looked at the four days elapsed since they took it, but of course there's been the weekend. Sorry.

your claim is for the value of the car they took. It doesn't matter what you replace it with. Plus you can claim for hire costs incurred whilst you source a replacement. You don't have to travel all over the country to source the cheapest replacement.

[hello405]

So we spoke to Burlington Group this morning and they said the car is already at auction. Then we called Moneybarn and they said that we haven't gotten the whole story from the person we bought the car from and that our legal claim is with him. They said they can't tell us more because of data protection laws.

This is exactly what I was afraid of--they know every detail of our case and we know nothing about theirs, even so far as who their client who had the finance agreement is. This feels hopeless.

[2222]

So we spoke to Burlington Group this morning and they said the car is already at auction. Then we called Moneybarn and they said that we haven't gotten the whole story from the person we bought the car from and that our legal claim is with him. They said they can't tell us more because of data protection laws.

This is exactly what I was afraid of--they know every detail of our case and we know nothing about theirs, even so far we who their client who had the finance agreement is. This feels hopeless.

You may want to buy the car at auction, just to crystallise your loss? And get it back!

when you issue the letter before action, the pre action protocol comes into play, and there is meant to be a frank exchange of views. It costs nothing to do.

[pt2537]

Hi Hello

You need to distinguish between your claim and your costs.

Your claim would include reasonably foreseeable consequential losses arising from them taking your car away. That would include car hire (although it would be sensible to buy a replacement car).

Your costs would be the costs of the proceedings, for example any solicitor's fees. You can't get those back on the small claims track. You can claim back any court fees fees, though.

Your best bet, as it's not that complicated a case, would be to handle the case as a litigant in person, within the small claims track. That means you don't have any costs to claim back. The finance company, on the other hand, are going to need to pay someone to handle the case for them, even if that is someone in-house. Even if they win, they won't be able to get those costs back from you. So, they are on a hiding to nothing fighting the case.

The whole thing is reasonably stacked in your favour. For example, you can have the case transferred to a court local to yourself, even if this is highly inconvenient for the finance company. On the other hand, you may find the procedure quite daunting. People here can help you complete the paperwork, and hopefully the finance company will fold long before it gets to court (if they have any sense!).

The only thing that bothered me was that, if you apply for an injunction, that might expose you to costs liability if you lose. I see that CPR 27.14 says that costs can be awarded "in proceedings which included a claim for an injunction ... a sum not exceeding the amount specified in Practice Direction 27 for legal advice and assistance relating to that claim". The practice direction specifies "up to £260", though, so not too deadly. To be frank, it's a bit late to apply for an injunction anyway now.

You can recover fees if you can show the other party has behaved unreasonably, this is clear in CPR 27.14(2)(g)

[R0b]

Relying on data protection is no excuse and in fact isn't applicable when it comes to potential legal proceedings. If you know the name of the seller and the address then your best bet would be to issue a claim against Money Barn as the first defendant and then the seller as the second. That way, if you fail in your claim against Money Barn you could still claim against the seller.

If Money Barn continue to refuse to engage in the pre-action protocol process and do not provide you with sufficient disclosure as to why you are not the legal owner of the vehicle, then you are perfectly entitled to pursue them. If they then suddenly provide information in their defence, you could argue unreasonableness and seek a proportion of costs due to their intransigence.

A very rough and ready letter before action might go along the lines of the below example - probably needs a jig around and maybe some extra detail but it gives you a starting point. If you want to also claim against the seller, then you need to send the seller a similar letter.

--------------------------------

Dear Sir or Madam,

Letter before action: wrongful interference with goods

I am writing to you with reference to the above and send this letter before action in accordance with the Pre-Action Protocols on Pre-Action Conduct.

On or about [date] I purchased a [year, name and make of vehicle] with the registration number [number]. The sale of the vehicle was a private one and the seller, whose name is [insert full name], claimed to be the owner of the vehicle and at no point was I made aware that the vehicle carried any outstanding finance. I therefore agreed to purchase the vehicle in good faith for the sum of £[amount] .

On [date] I receive a letter from Money Barn claiming to be the purported owner of the vehicle. I have primarily dealt with a person at Money Barn named [name] and I pointed out to [him/her] that I purchased the vehicle in good faith without notice of any hire-purchase agreement and, unless there is evidence to the contrary, title to the vehicle lawfully passed to myself. Despite repeated requests for further information, [name of MB person] refused to supply any evidence which proves that [seller name] purchased the vehicle in the knowledge that there was outstanding finance attached to it. I have since further obtained a signed statement from [seller name] confirming that he was unaware of any finance at the time of purchasing the vehicle.

Since then, Money Barn have instructed a third party company, Burlington Group to remove the vehicle from my possession and this in fact occurred on [date] at approximately [time]. I contacted Burlington Group on [date] and they confirmed that the vehicle is due to be auctioned. Following this, I then contacted Money Barn again requesting further information an evidence, only to be told that I am not aware of the full background to this issue and, for data protection reasons, will not disclose any information regarding this matter.

With regards to the issue of data protection, I would refer you to paragraph 5(3), Part 1 of Schedule 2 to the Data Protection Act 2018 which states that:

“The listed GDPR provisions do not apply to personal data where disclosure of the data –
(a) is necessary for the purpose of, or in connection with, legal proceedings (including prospective legal proceedings),
(b) is necessary for the purpose of obtaining legal advice, or
(c) is otherwise necessary for the purposes of establishing, exercising or defending legal rights,
to the extent that the application of those provisions would prevent the controller from making the disclosure.”

In light of the above, I do not accept that Money Barn cannot disclose further information or evidence which proves that [seller name] did not purchase the vehicle in good faith and without notice of there being any outstanding finance. The above provisions make it clear that the GDPR does not apply where disclosure of personal data is in connection with any, or any prospective, legal proceedings so I would therefore urge you to provide me with any relevant information and or evidence that you have in your possession which confirms that you are the lawful owner of the vehicle. Failing to co-operate may be seen as unreasonable conduct pursuant to the Civil Procedure Rules and I reserve the right to seek an adverse costs order against you in respect of the same. Nonetheless, in the absence of such evidence, I consider to be the true owner of the vehicle having obtained good title to the vehicle pursuant to Section 27 of the Hire-Purchase Act 1964. Furthermore, the removal of the vehicle from my possession constitutes a wrongful interference with goods, namely trespass to goods and/or conversion – an actionable tort claim in the civil courts.

In order to resolve this matter, I require you within 7 days of the date of this letter (by 4pm on 30 October 2018) to immediately return the vehicle or otherwise pay me £[amount] (based on a deduction for use) in lieu by bank transfer to the following bank account:

Name of bank:
Account no:
Sort code:

If you fail to comply with the above or I do not hear back from you by 30 October without providing a substantive response, I will seek to commence legal proceedings without further notice. Please note that the compensation referred to in this letter before action will likely increase and it is my intention to purchase a second hand vehicle in the event of your refusal to settle this claim so as to mitigate my losses in respect of your unlawful conduct.

I look forward to hearing from you in due course.

Yours faithfully,

[Your Name]

[hello405]

...your best bet would be to issue a claim against Money Barn as the first defendant and then the seller as the second. That way, if you fail in your claim against Money Barn you could still claim against the seller.

Just to clarify, you mean file a claim here? https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome


For the amount of the claim, I’m still unclear on how much it should be for. The car cost £3000 in August (I mistakenly said July earlier), however it will cost us more to replace the car because we are now in London. So do we claim £3000? Or can we claim more? We’ve already spent £90 in car hire and £20 in registered letters to Moneybarn. Additionally, we already paid approximately £900 to insure the car for the year, starting in August, and approximately £130 for tax, and there will be the court filing fees, which looks like will be £205.

Thank you very much for the letter template. You say it’s ‘rough and ready’ but I am not sure what needs to be changed. Do you have any additional suggestions? If not, we will fill in the blanks and send it in the morning. What amount should we request, based on the above numbers?

[R0b]

You could add all of those costs in subject to any pro-rata refund you might get. Let me have a think and I'll post something up later tonight/tomorrow morning - I can see a few errors already.

Why not post up a draft letter you want to send and it might be easier for me to look at your version than the example.

[hello405]

You could add all of those costs in subject to any pro-rata refund you might get. Let me have a think and I'll post something up later tonight/tomorrow morning - I can see a few errors already.

Why not post up a draft letter you want to send and it might be easier for me to look at your version than the example.

Honestly, the only thing we have done to it is filled in the blanks with names and dates and added a few commas. I would also change it to asking them to send a cheque because I don't want to give them our bank details. But other than that, I have no idea what should go in it. So any suggestions you have are great appreciated. I can't tell you how upsetting this has all been and your help has definitely made it better.

[2222]

I don't think you are stuck with the price you paid. I would look for a couple of comparable cars locally. Perhaps Rob could explain why he thinks otherwise?

[R0b]

I don't think you are stuck with the price you paid. I would look for a couple of comparable cars locally. Perhaps Rob could explain why he thinks otherwise?

I'm not sure what you mean by this - can you clarify? The starting point usually for the measure of damages in conversion is the market value of the goods at the time of the conversion plus any consequential losses. The £3,000 is the starting point as the price paid and yes, comparable cars locally would give an idea of what it is selling at but I would be looking regionally but a court could award less than the market value if the actual loss is less.

Anyway, see attached word document, I've tidied up a few things and also you'll see the list of losses as a result of the conversion by Money Barn. Adapt and suit to your situation.